Hi there, I’ve been practicing Bak Hok for a little over 10 years now. My lineage: Wong Lam-hoi, Nhg Siu-chung, Chan Hak-fu, John Cole, me. My sifu also studied under a man named George Long (who has somewhat controversial MA history,) and Leung Quan in San Francisco chinatown. George Long was also student of Chan Hak-fu I believe. One of my MA uncles, who studied under Leung Quan said that George Longs KF was not real Bak Hok, but rather Hop Ga; this is utterly ridiculous to me since they are just different names for the same art. Wong Yan-lam’s senior student (Wong Hon-wing) adopted the name Hop Ga, then Wong Lam-hoi’s senior student (Nhg Siu-chung) adopted the name White Crane. Wong Yan-lam and Wong Lam-hoi were brothers who had the same teacher (Sing Lung Lo Jung,) therefore it’s the same MA. ANYWAY, I feel that I must agree with everything that Warren said in regards to effectiveness of Bak Hok; from my own experience (though it would seem, not nearly as extensive as Warren’s) I have consistently myself overwhelmed and destroyed opponents using the techiques of White Crane, as well as witnessed a few “hard-core” knock-outs by my Si-hing. I have experience and/or knowledge of several other MA systems (chinese and otherwise) and of the all, Bak Hok is by far one of the most powerful that I’ve seen; of course it does depend on the practioner. I must say, though, Bak Hok has historically always produced excellent, effective and efficient fighters.
Hi
Let me share with you my training routine in Pak Hok I have practiced Pak Hok for a number of years. We commence training by doing push ups and various stretching warm-up exercises. The we drill repetitively in the basic 7 punches. Our master may call a student to the back of the hall to work with him on his Zin with hand pads. We may then do some form work before going on to 2 person training.
The 2 person training involves the students standing in the circle where one student will nominate to be the one who stands in the middle. A student from the circumfrence may call out and charge forward throwing a Zin punch. The defending student would react by stepping back and doing a circular block before throwing 2 zin punches at the attacker. The attacker would remain motionless until the defender has finished his punches.
There’s another exercise where the attacker would throw a zin and the defender would side step and pull the attacker off balance. The attacker would allow himself to be pulled but will do a jumping spin to regain his balance.
In Pak Hok, we don’t spar because our techniques are too dangerous and powerful. We are trained not to hold back our techniques.
I will share with you the secrets of Soft-crane, short stick, arm conditioning exercises and long range techniques in the forms in my next posts.
Now for the interesting part on how we train for competitions. The secret is to overwhelm the opponent with long zins. At close range we would use short zins. (that’s because those downward overhead hit are disallowed in some tornerments). When we throw a zin, we use the full waist twist which is the core concept of simultanous attack and defense.
There was a competition when my brother went up against a kick boxer. He came in with zins but the kick boxer side stepped and punched him in the head. Total KO. I guess the kick boxer just got lucky that day becuase Pak Hok is such a deadly style.
Chan HokFu, George Long, LeungQuan,…
Chan HokFu, probably is the most famous white crane master for his battle with NgGungYee in macao, 1953. He is one of BakHokSamFu(i mentioned about this on reply above)
George Long? i’ve never heard of him, or seen him
in annual magazine from PakHokAthleticAssotiation.
LeungQuan and his 2 brothers(blood), trained under KwongBonFu’s club in KowLoon for a number of years, before they came to SF, united states.
i’ve seen pak hok fight they swing too much, do you guys walk aroud your opponent with arms stretched out?
if you do get hit buy a swinging arm you will definetly go down.
peace
Man I am going to get flamed but what else is new…
I am sorry Fu Manchu but if you do not practice sparring at all, than you are wasting your time and in a real life confrontation you could end up beat to **** or even worse dead.
When people mention such things as we do not spar because our systems techniques are very deadly or that their static training partners “let” themselves get thrown or attacked in a drill, than all you do is REINFORCE the basic fact that what you call traditional kung fu practice just creates dancers and not fighters.
All pretty moves and no determination…so very common.
Your sifu should teach you about the difference between self perfection and self peservation.
If you guys do not spar or have any “alive” training than your basics must be horrible and I hope that you find a realistic school that cares about its students survival in a world where anything can happen.
Regards
Many old school sifus from san francisco’s Chinatown recognize George Long as a fake. Long learned kung fu for 3 months and opened up a school. None of the sifus respected him back in the days. He was more of a joke to them. He made his $$$ during the kung fu boom and moved to Hollywood. I think he’s a chiropractor today. George Long’s students used to sparr with sifu WJM’s students as well.
Chan Hok Fu?
Is he the one that fought the famous Wu style tai chi master? I have that fight on tape and it was a horrible fight. It looked like girls slapping each other. Sorry, I don’t mean to disrespect your styles etc. I think white crane is a great style. I have the fight on tape if anyone wants to see it.
Interesting, but you may want to talk to…
Bryant Fong, SF wushu coach and a Law Horn stylist from WJM. Bryant is also a traditional white crane practitioner. He is also the nephew of Quentin Fong (lineage from Luk, Chi-Fu via Ng, Siu-Chung). Bryant Fong has the distinction of learning from Quentin Fong, the Leung Bros. (first two brothers of three), and George Long. I am not sure if he learned from William Siu also. Raymond Wong(sp?) from the Avenues was also teaching at that time, but his white crane was a single-stanced style of white crane/lama. As an educator, Bryant is opened to all thoughts of learning and intructions. He once mentioned that George Long practised Red Sand Palm and could red palm marks on your body after striking an opponent. I never asked about Long’s white crane proficiency though. William Siu, owner of the now defunct White Crane Supplies Store on Golden Gate Ave & Market St, SF use to tell me that Long knows nothing. William Siu taught Michael Staples some white crane, I believe.
George Long is now an acupuncturist catering to the Hollywood Stars and doesn't even bother to teach. I don't know about his students, but a notable one who still teaches out on 28th and Geary is Ron Dong. He kicks ass...seriously. Gary Fung, another student of George's (Read an old issue of Inside Kung-Fu), and a bunch of his classmates opened up the Jung/Mei school of white crane in the seventies. It produced many proficient students w/chin, pow, cup, bin trademark punches. Ron Dong is also a student of Chan, Hoc-Fu from what I have heard.
I don't know about the rest of his students.It was one of George Long's student that badly beat a Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut stylist three decades ago. The CLF guy is now the grandmaster of several franchises thru out the world and resides in the Bayarea.
Cha Kuen is correct about how the chinatown kwoons use to view George Long. It is ironic how all the white crane sifu's to pan George in the old days, but now George is filty rich and living it up and the rest are living on meager pensions (if any).
As far as what BlackJack has mentioned, white crane does have sparring. The white crane boys in HK sorta like to fight...alot. A classic issue of Inside KungFu (70's first volume) has white crane comparing fighting techniques against wing chun. Guess who they were: Quentin Fong and his good friend Ben Der. It seems that our sifu's were more hip and uninhibited in comparing and improving their fighting techniques. Beg or borrow or xerox that issue...it is a classic eye opener.
Lastly...Hooray, hooray...the EDIT function now works! Thanks KFO Administrator for your time, effort, and devotion.
[This message was edited by molum_jr on 10-14-00 at 01:52 AM.]
What issue of Inside Kung Fu discussed white crane vs. wing chun ? I am familiar with Ben Derr. I think his wc skills are very good since he learned from Ken Chung. Do you have a copy of that issue? If it’s not too much trouble , I’d like to see it. Email me at
pkduong@ucsd.edu
thank you .
molum_jr
Have you heard of sifu Leung Gum Chiew? He is a white crane sifu. Don’t get him confused with Leung Kwun. Leung Gum Chiew teaches a few people at his house. He is a full time head cook at some famous Chinese restaurant. I remember that Bryant Fong used to train with WJM. He then moved to China to study wushu. I never knew he trained white crane as well. Fong teaches the UC Berkeley wushu today. I heard that he teaches tai chi in a few community centers as well. Did you watch the kung fu demonstration when Lau Bun appeared? He was present but did not perform. I also heard from a student of Jew Leong that Bruce Lee was stirring up some trouble with CLF students. Lee eventually found out that it was Lau Bun’s lineage students when he ran into Lau Bun himself. Lee bowed to Lau Bun out of respect and left. Did you hear about that?
Funny, Funny, Funny…
It’s amazing how ppl modified the system’s history…
some white crane master didn’t even got bai-see by NgSiuChung or his student.
he wasn’t even qualified to join NgSiuChung’s funeral. GodSon? yeah rite… NgSiuChung’s real students used to call u taijai~ taijai~…
he treated u like a cute little prince.
u used to be called black tiger, because that was name of the basketball team that u were playing for
u said u wanted to continue learning BakHokKyun,
so NgSiuChung sent the letter to one of his students who was in canton at that time.
NgSiuChung asked u one day, ‘since u learned so much from him, why dun u get BaiSee from him?’
HuHu…
some old generations didn’t even bother to call u SiHing or SiDai, they called u Mr.****.
Y? because U didn’t get BAISEE by anybody.
One day, u forgot the movements of LawHonKyun…
u asked a member of PakHokAthleticAssociation, to help u…
Funny!! How u r acting after GrandMaster’s death!!
U Know ALL THIS!!!
old generations r passing away…
But wait… not all of them passed away yet.
I can provide the evidences that can support what i m saying, in front of all the bakhokpai ppl, not the innocent caucasian ppl, who believed what u were saying.
If you can’t prove what u r saying… u better not.
truth will come out.
p.s my sifu’s daughter doesn’t know any kung fu,
but is she still a member of BakHokPai, thou…?
she’s kinda cute thou… 
Warrenoh,
I emailed you several times. Please respond when you have time, thanks
about the e-mail
like i said in e-mail, we can actually meet up.
i don’t have VHS tape i can send u.
until then, take care.
P.S if u wonder about the movement of Lama or BakHok, it shouldn’t be that different from the tape u watched(David Ross). or visit the club in ur town.
[This message was edited by warrenoh on 11-02-00 at 04:05 AM.]
Spectrum of Tibetan Martial Arts
I enjoyed your posts regarding Tibetan Martial arts – BakHok.
I am currently in the process of establishing a Tibetan Martial Arts Organization in Europe
(see http://www.1freespace.com/sport/datma/ for more details).
It is useful to understand the definition of “Tibetan” systems (this can range from indigenous traditions through to systems carrying specific a link with either a Tibetan location or person).
Although Hop-Gar (Tibetan White Crane) is the most well known, I am personally more interested in those systems that contain a core of Tibetan cultural knowledge such as Dorjee Lam, Vadha and Lungta - which contain elements of Bon, Dzogchen, or Buddhist concepts (as the Chinese Internal Systems have a relationship with Taoism).
As part of the organizational framework DATMA are interested in building an international community to propagate the valuable and fascinating traditions of an endangered culture.
Mer
Cha Kuen- If possible, I would like a copy of the fight. Can you please email me with details on how I could obtain a copy. mystic__11206@yahoo.com
Thanks in advance
Buby
george long fake? is that so!?!
I’t has been a while since I did that posting regarding myu lineage and overall view on pak hok/tibetan ma, so I was quite surprised at the number of responses that it generated when I did finally get around to checking the forum again; especially in regards to all the comments that I received in regards to George Long. My sifu was classmates with Ron Dong (he’s my si-bot) and also studied under Chun Hak-fu with him as well, and I can personally attest to si-bot Dongs fighting skills; like someone said on the forum Ron Dong is a definite hard ass. He’s got freakin’ iron forearms built like damn Popeye!!
george long,… to continue.
Now, I WASN’T HERE DURING THE 70’S, but I have heard many stories in regards the George Long’s standing in the ma world during this time. William Siu also once told me: “George Long,… the man know’s nothing about White Crane!” OH WELL!! I mean who really know’s,… I’ve heard similar stories about Quentin Fong,… that he used to forget forms in the middle of class and have to refer to “cheat sheet.” Frankly, I could care less cuz: 1) I wasn’t there to confirm nor refute these claims and 2) If he can fight with it does it really matter? Ron Dong only teaches 6 forms,…anybody in the know wanna say he can’t fight?
what did i say?
like i said, i never seen him in the annual magazine from PakHokAthleticAssociation in 1970’s.
that’s all i said.
P.S what’s his chinese name?
no disrespect Warren,…
Warren, please forgive me if I sounded hostile or disrespectful towards you; it definitly was not my intention. I was only making a statement,… not any sort of accusation. From what I have read from you on the forum Warren, I can tell that you have a great amount of knowledge in tibetan MA. I, like yourself, have huge amount of interest in tibetan MA,… but as you can imagine, there is not a whole lot of written information available on the subject. Everything that I know, I’ve had to piece together myself, and has taken many years for me to gain any kind of cohesive lineage and/or historical accounts of where MA comes from. Please understand that all that I have learned on this forum has been tremendously helpfull and encouraging in regards to my search for the true history of my White Crane. Note to molum jr: could you e-mail me at darkie71@hotmail.com, I have questions that I would like ask you. You seem to have some intimate knowledge of what really went on in Pak Hok world during the 70’s. My sihing used to be on SF wushu team with Bryant Fong during early 80’s, when Maggie from beijing team was coaching; he knocked out WJM’s senior student w/spinning backfist during competition!! Molum jr, r u student of Bryan
it’s actually his students that are changing the history…
Mr.**** is a respectable figure, who promoted bakhokpai internationally.
it was actually his students, who just wanted to put themselves higher in the bakhok lineage.
Again, Mr.**** is a respectable figure. His fighting skill is high, since he trained hard in bakhokpai manner under KwongBonFu, who’s 4th generation grandmaster of bakhokpai.
i doubt anyone will argue with KwongBonFu’s authority in BakHokPai. A lot of sifus, who claimed student of NgSiuChung or even real students of NgSiuChung, actually learned mostly from KwongBonFu.
i m NOT trying to say who’s better or higher rank, here. it is the TRUTH.
again, it’s not the sifus themselves who r changing the history, it’s their students.
i respect them for respecting their own sifus, but Truth is the Truth.
simply just ask old generations, whom u might call as SiGung or SiTaiGung.
KwongBonFu had been a shadow of NgSiuChung, and he got the leadership from NgSiuChung-JeungMunYun.
This was on the Article in HK martial arts newspaper several yrs before NgSiuChung’s sudden death.
At that time NgShunTing was just a young girl who don’t know anything about martial arts, and still don’t. It was KwongBonFu and NgSiuChung’s wife, who was in charge of NgSiuChung’s funeral.
The Old respectable masters i met simply respect NgShunTing since she’s a daughter of NgSiuChung, definitely not because her martial ability or knowlidge in BakHokPai.(Blood Family is a Blood family, and Martial Family is separate… 
plus BakHok is NOT family inheritant MA.)
this history might not seem to enhance ur GungFu, but i just want to get the history straight. Martial Arts is not talking, but acting.
i hope everyone in BakHokPai training hard and get well.
P.S I accept any PHYSICAL challenge from those who would argue with this history.
White crane/Lions roar…
Just a funny story i would like to add.
A couple of years ago a white crane teacher came to denmark, he started out teaching in the biggest kungfu school in his town, but because of the competition from the other styles his classes was not popular.
Most people dident like the training, too hard.
Now he is teaching in the local capoeira school, he has only a few dedicated students.
There is no need for him to keep anything secret, the nature of his training makes sure that the ones who stays in his class are serious.
Every time im in his town i drop by for a couple of hours of capoeira and white crane.