Bak Hok Pai

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Hi all of you Kung Fu enthusiasts reading this forum. I think its time we got back to discussing what we are interested in talking about rather than being distracted by that …nutcase.
I also ask that from now on we should all just ignore him/her/it.

First of all, I am really happy that people practicing the different streams that have developed from Lion’s Roar are discussing topics here. One thing that saddens me is the secrecy with which many styles are protected. Whether for political reasons, personal gain, and genuine reasons for the need of secrecy this has probably meant that many kung fu styles may have lost bits and pieces or …developed. Anyway, this is a great place for us all to chat about kung fu and tibetan MA.

One of the topics that particularly interested me is developing the ability to apply your kung fu. If you are preparing for a fight or really wish to learn skills and be able to apply them for a real fighting, self-defence situation I think you really have to have specific training for it. two man drills, circle training will only help prepare you to a degree. Having many street fights would help a great deal but probably isn’t the safest training method.

Also a point to note for the Kung Fu people here. Training more helps improve your techniques forms etc. The sad thing is that the more you train the more likely you are to sustain injuries etc. You have to balance out the training that you do. For e.g. something like this…one day you might spend your training session working on techniques, forms. the next day work on weights, and fitness, etc. I think the safer way to train is to alternate between different types of exercise and training throughout the week.

I spent a period of time training everyday, sometimes for up to 6 hours with rest periods throughout. Not having given myself enough rest, and alternating training exercises etc, I ended up wearing myself out. joints started to ache, etc. Don’t get me wrong, by the end of this 2-3 month period, my form work was really good. movements felt natural, my sense of chi had developed. But afterwards I rested for a long period to recover and was plagued with a knee problem. The lesson here is not to just train hard but to train smart. nevertheless, to a varying degree depending on the individual and their purposes from learning kung fu injuries will occur and the proper medical treatment should be sought.

anyway tell me what you think?

888

2

Pak Hok pai (Reply)

“First of all, I am really happy that people practicing the different streams that have developed from Lion’s Roar are discussing topics here.”

That what the forum is for! We’re all celebrating your happiness

“One thing that saddens me is the secrecy with which many styles are protected. Whether for political reasons, personal gain, and genuine reasons for the need of secrecy this has probably meant that many kung fu styles may have lost bits and pieces or …developed. Anyway, this is a great place for us all to chat about kung fu and tibetan MA.”

The thing is Friday, it is an inherent charcteristic of Pak Hok Pai to be b1tchy to one another. Just speak to your sifu or senior students and they’ll b1tch. You’re from Australia right? Do you have Pak Hok there? The school that i’ve been to the US was like that and didn’t teach practical fighting applications and the people behaved that way. Maybe that’s why my opinion of Pak Hok has been distorted by this experience.

“One of the topics that particularly interested me is developing the ability to apply your kung fu. If you are preparing for a fight or really wish to learn skills and be able to apply them for a real fighting, self-defence situation I think you really have to have specific training for it. two man drills, circle training will only help prepare you to a degree.”

I’ve found that the 2 men training in Pak Hok and especially the ciurcle trainnig is a load of crap. It is all preorcharsted. Obviously you’re a smart person to know that it doesn’t prepare ypu well for a fight.

“Having many street fights would help a great deal but probably isn’t the safest training method.”

Street fights are the real deal, not a preparation for something else. Don’t get yourslef confused there. Being a newbie on this forum, you may have already tried to talk too much and tripped over your line of arguement.

“Also a point to note for the Kung Fu people here. Training more helps improve your techniques forms etc.”

You’re so smart.

“The sad thing is that the more you train the more likely you are to sustain injuries etc. You have to balance out the training that you do.”

That’s because these people don’t train in a safe way. Sure martial arts is a contact activity and would result in certain injuries from time to time. Jusatr take the commonsense approach. No need to be sad.

“I think the safer way to train is to alternate between different types of exercise and training throughout the week.”

Like martial arts and weights in your previous example. Sorry I don’t mean to laugh. Maybe you shouldn’t train so hard in pak Hok - won’t make you a better fighter anyway.

“I spent a period of time training everyday, sometimes for up to 6 hours with rest periods throughout.”

Is training pak hok your full time job. I think your training method is crap, to have to train so many hours. Or perhaps you like repetition. Some slow learners do, but I don’t think you’re slow as you’ve made a nubeer of very insightful comments.

“Not having given myself enough rest, and alternating training exercises etc, I ended up wearing myself out. joints started to ache, etc. Don’t get me wrong, by the end of this 2-3 month period, my form work was really good.”

I don’t see how you can perform the forms well when your joints are aching. Is this the famous Pak Hok Paradox?

“movements felt natural, my sense of chi had developed.”

It is not natural to have aching joints.

“But afterwards I rested for a long period to recover and was plagued with a knee problem. The lesson here is not to just train hard but to train smart.”

Alright, most people would have figured this out without going through such a painful lesson. How long were you at this for? Have you since quite pak hok and moved on to a Northern kung fu system?

“nevertheless, to a varying degree depending on the individual and their purposes from learning kung fu injuries will occur and the proper medical treatment should be sought.”

If pain persist see a doctor!

Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

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Hi Ego,

you poor creature…I can see you have a lot of pent up bitterness and frustrations inside…I feel very sorry for you.

I hope you eventually get better.

Take your own advice…if pain persists, see a doctor :slight_smile:

888

4

Hi Friday,

Do you know a gentleman by the name of Peter Kuo??

Cheers,

5

Hi friday
I’m in Hop Gar Kung Fu under Sifu Ku Chi Wai. If ya read the ineage of my branch of the system of webpage is www.hopgar.com

True,that all of the drills dont prepare you totally, but if you do them along with sparring, and a couple fist fights - I think you’ll do pretty well when you should ever need to use it.

Zvika

“He’s not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e’s resting, I’ll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot…” -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

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i have had two minor altercations

since i started to ponder how to make my kung fu kung fu and not kickboxing

the two scraps i didnt intend and they were based
on some1 i knew but didnt expect.
on the kf forum theres a post talking about freezing in combat “just the whole wtf is going on”
the second time the person was basicaly drunk and i found myself consciously talking to myself
;jiminy crickets all dont hit him-try to submit and calm him down"

now related to khong and fridays post
it wouldnt be to healthy to engage in streetfights—but to get past certain barriers’such as freezing,one would need somesort of psychological training—any ideas on that from modern day science of warfare perspective.
also any of you guys who can trace thier lineage back in the tibetan related arts,do you have any tips on these thoughts from the ancients.

7

Sifu Peter Kuo

Yes I know Sifu Peter Kuo, he has a mo guan in chinatown above the restaurant.

Also he has a sihing in Campbelltown whose student Mr Joce Santa Maria.

what relationship are you with them?

888

8

Hop Gar

Hi Kong, I agree that circle training, two man drills help in preparation and the perfection of techniques.
nevertheless they are limited in that like Ego said they are preorchestrated. Still I have learnt something from these training methods and believe that there are benefits.
I like what a group of Wing Chun people do in the US. set up a relationship with tae kwon do fighters and do some sparrring together.
by the way
may i ask you whether you have learnt any forms following hop gar kuen in the US? hop gar forms not shaolin. With the death of Ng yim Ming do you think some of Hop Gar Kuen was lost? Do you know of any other branches who teach Hop Gar?

888

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diego’s comments

your comments remind me of what my sifu has said many times before. Kung Fu is a long term martial arts in terms of capability. You have to train and condition yourself such that moves become spontaneous during a fight. If you have to think about what move, or technique you need next I think you are in trouble. It probably then degenerates to a kickboxing like match.
the good thing about boxing, wing chun, kickboxing is that in some ways ( and i m sure i should expect a barrage of criticism for saying this) it is simpler. fewer techniques is an advantage sometimes.
Sifu also told me although my form work was really good, I would require special training for fighting. conditioning exercises, which is what I have done in Australia. (my other sifu is in Hong Kong).
for me kung fu without its combat application is lacking something…just as internal without external.

888

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injuries

also by the way…my comment on Kung Fu, martial arts and injuries, was a comment I made from my personal experience training fulltime in HK during my holidays (hahaha i know crazy, anyway it was fun) and from my chats with a few friends of mine, one who is about to become a qualified sports therapist who trains in WuShu and his sifu who came from old school kung fu academy in China and won number 1 Praying Mantis in that Chinese Kung Fu tournament/competition. ( I think the one Jet Li has won many times before).

888

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Re: training against ‘freezing’

hi diego,

if you would like I will ask my sifus in Pak Hok Pai this question and see what they think.

I can’t guarantee this is 'traditional methods’though. :slight_smile:

888

12

Kung Fu

Friday,

You seem to enjoy your kung fu even traing full time in Hong Kong on your vacation. i know I’ll be doing other things!

You’re right - form work does not translate to good fighting. It is a learning tool - important but nevertheless - a learning tool.

Don’t take this as a critism - but you (and many people on the forum tend to say) “… not like kick boxing etc…” Well I see kick boxing as kung fu in a combat situation bound by rules. If you compete in situations that require wrestling then it probably becomes like BJJ or NHB type of contest. If you take away the legs then it’ll be like boxing.

Those practitoners in these sports can be very good atheletes but they fight the way they do because of the rules.

If your kung fu starts to look like kickboxing it may be because the situation dictates. Anyway fighting is suppose to be messy, who wouldn’t want to start & end a fight with a knock out punch.

How do you find Pak Hok in Australia? I’m surprised it’s found its way to your part of the world!

Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

13

FRIDAY THAT WOULD BE GREAT

khong you need to respectfully pick at your teacher for whats the deal with hop ga and ng-ming.
Friday i have a strange art that in some way claims ng-yim-ming
basically it is kajukenbo/hopgar with mantis and what i hear some internal style concepts but im not to clear yet…
do you have or could you ask your seniors if they have any storys or detials on fellows who have mixed thier tibetan art with another..

im in a funny predicament, i have home video of the 13 sets and i know 6 of them with a good idea of the rest…when i was taught it was all aplication but i got the gist of the system because thier is no basics in this method its all to the point killing technique..
i contacted the senior who inherited the art from his friend and teacher,but the teacher was killed
and i was shown more then i should have been in respects to time spent in chronological skill development…so im not a authority but i have a good idea…I THINK
i definatly understand the combat mind and the differance between a rush of fear adrenaline and anger adrenaline,wich helps greatly in the inhale/exhale of your methods…
just a little question and bio.

ego you have A and thats A odea what your are thinking but you have this tone of cynicism however unconscious,it seems your point is to get fellow posters riled up and not simply to use the greek philosophy method of arguement to build further discourse uno break through certain personall barriers to bring out the light
imo not very humble you seem bored on this board.
ENJOY YOUR WAFFLES.

14

Hop-Gar with other styles

diego,

A British Si-Fu, Steve Richards has published a book on a combined Hop-Gar Mantis System:

Hop-Gar Mantis Kung Fu
Published by Paul H Crompton
London UK

Publishers e-mail CROMPTONPH@aol.com (for details).

It is Jook-Lum SPM with a branch of Hop-Gar deriving from Chan-Fat-Fu who is well known in HK for his Choy-Lay-Fut. Chan was a personal friend of Harry Ng-Yim-Ming and is a friend also of GM Ku-Chi-Wai.

Chan’s forms are different to those found in most other branches they include: Sei-Lo-Fun-Dar (Four Way Separate Attack), Tau-Dar (Stealing the Attack) and Wai-Tor Luk-Lo (The Six Ways of Abbot Wai-Tor).

Chan keeps his ‘Lion’s Roar’ as he calls it to himself these days but in the early 1970’s a student of his Lau-Char-Chu who was the Self-Defence instructor to the High Security Stanley Prison Staff in HK taught it openly.

GM Ku has seen Steve Richards on video and commented that he can see some Choy-Lay-Fut influences in it. maybe that’s to be expected.

Steve is writing another book, published by New Breed in the UK called ‘Tibetan Kung-Fu: the Lion’s Roar’. It’s due out next year sometime I think.

15

hey barefoot have you seen that style

one of the techniques that best exemplifies:

agianst r punch,
sidestep to the left in a left side facing adduction stance"l mantis stance,r heel up"
right grab and left claw to face.
the left hand hooks opponents right arm and wipes to the left while the right foot steps into the right then the left foot triangle shuffle steps to the left in a right crane stance and the l hand flings back while the right straight punches the solar plexus…"JUST BASIC GRAB STRIKE SIDESTEP-SHUFFLE’IN WIPE AWAY AND STRIKE.

16

also im going to order that book asap

do you have any keywords i did a quick 2minute search on altavista,typed in sifu steve richards and chan-fat-fu and got to many sifu names..

can you think of related links,they must have students who built thier own private pages.

17

Hi Friday,

Just curious - I don’t know Sifu Peter Kuo personally. I remember watching him and his students in Chinatown performing Lion Dancing. It was quite entertaining. At one point they were dancing out the front of an Omiyage shop and he convinced the shop keeper (a Chinese woman in her 30’s)to let them use a Ming-dynasty style vase (about 2-3 feet high) to grab the red packet. It was quite amusing to watch when the lions head jumped onto the vase the woman nearly freaked out. She looked pretty relieved when they finished. :smiley:

Cheers

18

ya barefoot that tech

the left mantis stance is r toe up.

have you heard the name alexander"kaido"pollintain
he started teaching the art in 72??
died about 15 years later.
i wonder if its the same method?

19

Su Ko Ming Jong Shr

Hi guys,
I practice T.White Crane And Hop Gar.Hey Kong Zi Wu do you guys ever practice Tin Sin Choi Yam drill with in/out steps?I been doing some intensive training in Hop Gar and would like to talk with you.My teacher got his Hop Gar from GM Ku Chi Wai a couple of years ago so it’s the same stuff your doing.I know all the drills and have been shown all of the kuens but one,so we could have a good sharing session.

Friday,I too spent a lot of time training every day,but only for 2 hours a day,and that seemed to work well for me.I never got injured but I guess it’s because I was lucky.I think the trick is listening to your body.If you start to train and you just can’t get warmed up no matter what you do you had better have a light training session or else your setting yourself up for a sprain or a pulled muscle.

We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet
our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass
away.

20

ONE THING that would be good

is if those willing could share the gist of thier fighting methods,based on the old lions roar principle sayings…wich i dont know.

i would be willing to take the most signifying aspects of my techniques and post online…

i mean its know big deal its just text, i feel it would create continuos historical discussion;
wich we all can agree its hard to find open info on lions roar’related.

so i’l start with a basic i notice the major method in my style is to evade/stun-set off balance and knock-out…like the tech i described in my other post..a simple variation of that would be to sidestep to your left and r outward grab and r sidekick to shin or knee–r steps into opp in a r horse and l presses shoulder and r 2bigknuckles to temple. we use that alot the drop into horse and smother shoulder and temple or back of head shot.

maybe we could share competition training,relatable endurance conditioning drills etc,all to build further discourse in this forum..get all the tibets out the woodwork.

although as of now im teacherless until i can get to montreal,i have a good idea of the fighting strategie. for the hop frame