Tibetan Kung Fu Styles

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
21

Warrenoh

The URL thing was never meant to be disrespect to the Bak Hok Pai. As from my previous knowledge and masters that I met in Bak Hok Pai in HK, it shows my respect to your style, and I mean no offense.
 I myself is a traditional chinese that brought up in HK too. I totally agree with the martial manner and respect " Mo Duk" theory which has not been widely practise in modern days western world. It is ofcourse important to learn that, as I always stress.
The URL thing is just a kind of signature  thing that I put below my name, so it isn't a advert as you said, I hope you don't mind.


                        regards

                            Wilson
22

Wanted to post up here before, but didn’t know my lineage or even all of the names of the forms in the cirriculum. I just found my old training manual with all the info, so here goes:
My old sifu in high school studied for a couple years under a Master Chuek T Tse in Hawaii. Master Chuek studied under Ng Bing Jong. I’m not 100% sure on which forms were from which lineage- my sifu studied for 6 years in Green Dragon (5 animal shaolin), 2 years under master Chuek, some time under Sifu Vernon Rieta, and 10 years under a taichi, hsing yi teacher in Okinawa. Most of the Green Dragon forms are in mandarin, because the lineage went through Taiwan.(Shaolin->Kao Fang Hsien->Hung Wen Hsueh->SL Martin-> Ken Thomas -> my old sifu).
I’m assuming the forms with the Cantonese names are the Tibetian ones. However, this becomes difficult, taking into account that my old sifu doesn’t speak chinese and may have gone with either the mandarin or cantonese pronunciation for words, depending on whether or not he knew another form with a similar name.
The forms I’m pretty sure are Tibetian include:
-Kao Da (Twisting strikes- lots of Fan Choi, looks cool)
-Ji Wy (Chicken form- heard it’s actually Choi li fut, really nice form)
-Chuek Kune (Chuek family fist, aka 1000 backfists, heard the nickname is fitting)
-Siu Mui Fa (Little plum Flower)
-Mui Fa Cheong (Plum Flower posts)
-Lohan Sao (Buddha Palm, one of my fav’ sets, eventhough I only learned the first 7 moves)
-Tet Tsin (Iron Wire, definitely different than the Hung Gar one- there’s 1 whooping noise in the middle when you do a 1 legged squat, 1 arm straight up w/2 fingers extended)

The mandarin ones from Green Dragon include:
-Liu Quan (6 fists, aka 6 power- the basic 6 crane punches)
-Yee Bo Hao (Single stepping crane- one of my favorite forms to date)
-Shee Hao (Snake and Crane, the note says “Ta Hao Chung Kuo Chen”)
-Tiow Ba Fung Dao (Circular and turning blade of 8 winds)
-Yin Hao Dao (Silver crane knives- basically single stepping crane with butterfly knives)

Can anybody help me sort through this mess?
Do any of these forms resemble any Tibetian forms?
-I could probably contact my old sifu, to find out exactly which forms he learned from Master Chuek, if need be.

I’d really appreciate it if anybody could offer any help, thanks!

23

Lost Disciple.

The cantonese forms u know is NOT a tibetan system. but, in my opinion, i think those forms are mixtures of southern forms(mostly ChoyLeiFaht or jow ga).

The mandarin forms r NOT a tibetan system either, it sounds like Fujian WhiteCrane, which is popular in taiwan.

I could be wrong about this, please check with ur sifu.

[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 04-28-2000).]

24

Warrenoh

You said “only fist talk” I personally believe that typing with fingers is much more effective than punching up a keyboard.

I did have a look at your URL. Hop Gar does sound impressive for what it claims to deliver. Could you describe your training progam for example what do you do in a typical Hop Gar class?

25

Dear WildManRiot

‘Fist talks’ also means, if u have time to
BS, go practice punching even one more time.
that will help ur KF, not ur mouth or fingers typing the keyboard.

What do we do in the typical class?
Let me ask you, what do u do in the typical class?

This is my answer for u, think until u figure this out.

1.There’s no such thing as a secret. 2.practice makes one perfect.
3.one has to sacrifice something for something else.
4.one with honest mind will get the true essence.
5.every KF starts from basic training, without solid foundation, it’s like the tree with no root.

keep these 5 in your mind, and do it, then one will be really strong.

Again, Everything starts from the basics. and that what we mostly do in the class.

[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 04-29-2000).]

26

Warrenoh

Yes I talk too much, just a keyboard warior.

What are some of the basics that you do in training?

The reason why I’m asking is because, your strain of Pak Hok is very rare and I’m sure there will be heaps of people out there who also would be very curious to find out more.

Look forward to your reply.

27

Dear wildmanriot

Fundamental movement of Tibetan MA is waist twist. Tibetan MA is the most aggressive MA i’ve ever experienced. we say good offense is the best defense. we don’t practice blocks that much, compared to other styles.
actually, we seldom or never block.
let’s say if someone punches, then we just turn waist, which means we evade and punch at the same time, with steps if necessary.

i’ll explain you about 4 fundamental principle.
1.Chan - we try not to fight, however, if we do, we fight with full power, until the fight is over.
2.Sim - evade and hit at the same time.
3.Cheung - offend continuously for most devastating results
4.Jit - train enough to stay a step ahead of your opponent.

there’s an old saying.

However, without solid basic training, the fighting principle is just what comes out of mouth.

First of all, one’s gotta have power, the power doesn’t necessarily mean size of the person, it includes physical power, as well as mental power. Training forms without this, is nothing but dancing.

The foundation must be SOLID, QUALITY is better than quantity.

the common basics we practice are

waist twist, Stance training(Internal Training), punches, kicks, claws, light body exercise…

It’s hard to explain basic exercises by typing.
i advise u to visit the club in ur town.

NiDa, AnBuDan, AnDaNi, DangBuZu
if u hit, i dun block, i hit u, can’t stop me

28

Warrenoh

Do you do much sparring or contact work to develop your timing? I’m sure you’re paccking alot of power in your punches with the full waist twist, however, if your timing is a little off or the opponent’s attack is coming at a slightly different angle to what you anticipate, waist twist may not be enough to evade the attack. Is this a fair comment?

29

warrenoh:
I think your assessment sounds fair. I just thought with a name (as my teacher remembered it and wrote in the manual) like “ng bing jong”- that they may be related somehow to the other “ng” of the Tibetian system. I know “ng” is a famous cantonese last name though, so I don’t expect too much.

As far as the other crane being Fukien I somewhat agree. I’ve stated in other posts on other boards that there were 3 styles of crane taught at that school. The first two I listed in my other reply. The last one came from the hsing yi, tai chi teacher. His wife’s last name is Hokama. He took it as his own last name. Hokama is a very famous Goju Ryu family. Goju Ryu is based on Fujian crane, I think specifically from the Fuzhou locality (I’ve got documentation on it). The hsing yi, tai chi teacher learned in Taiwan (which was originally populated by people from Fujian- what a lot of people call “Taiwanese” is actually Fukienese). He taught a form called “Fukien shee hau” or “Fukien snake and crane”. Interestingly enough, this form, mechanically is the same as the highest level Goju Ryu Form. The difference is, the way he teaches it, has a lot of fluidity. It’s not stiff at all. It’s done in a traditional kung fu manner, and eventhough it contains the same movements as the Goju Ryu form, it ends up looking totally different.

My point for that long description, is that the forms that were Green Dragon (the ones with the mandarin names), were not only passed from the Fukien temple (southern shaolin), they were done with many of the same techniques as this Fukien Shee Hau form. I think you may be right; that the Green Dragon crane forms are probably from the Fukien crane system.

I would really like to see real Tibetian White Crane someday.

30

Dear wildmanriot,

No, we dun do as much sparring as MuayThai, TaeKwondo…,
However, there’s an EYE training, and 2-man excercises, a lot of contact training, not on the beginning level.
two KF brothers of mine r NorthAmerica Kickboxing champions in 1970’s, one of their students r champion too.
These guys always say the power to be a champion were from the basic training we do, including CONTACT training.

wildmanriot, i m now pretty sure that u r
pretty novice in MA without a good sifu, or u r just young.
Why dun u check out MA school in ur town?
I hope u find the style u want.

[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 05-01-2000).]

31

Dear warrenho,

It’s great to be able to speak to someone as knowledgable like you. in pak hok, there are the 7 main punches. “Jin” being the straight punch and circular punches for the others. Do you have the same punches in Lama? How would you use those swinging punches, they seem rather predictable? what do you do in your contact training?

32

wildmanriot

Lama & BakHok r the identical style with different names. it’s like learning the same MA with different sifus. every sifu has his own aspect.
there r 8 basic punches in both bakhok and lama. Some bakhok ppl train with 7 punches in the basic, without the only short-hand-uppercut punch. However, in the form there r all the 8 punches.

I can’t explain you about contact training.

because,

  1. my writing skill is not good enough to explain them in the cyberspace.
  2. U r NOT my student, i see no reason to explain u about the details.
  3. U r NOT even a member of BakHok.

I know u r KF enthusiast with a lot of curiosity.
i wish u the best.

[This message has been edited by warrenoh (edited 05-02-2000).]

33

Hi Warrenoh

Let’s stick to generalities then. What range of attack are those full arm swings used for? they seem very powerful with full hip twist. Do you view the short hand upper cut as a modification of the long arm upper cut “pow”? and do you modify all long arm techniques into short arm techniques?

34

Something that just might help clarify things…

There are two distinct crane styles. One being Bak Hok Pai, from Tibet, and the other one, Bak Hok Kuen, more from Shaolin. Similar names, but the kung fu is very different.

Do any of you white crane lovers know the story about “Bak Hok Sam Fu”? (the three Fu’s of White Crane).

35

paul

When you refer to Pak Hok Kuen, are you refering to the branch that originated from Fuijian in southern china? If so can you explain to us how it is different from the Hop Gar system?

36

I do not practice either of these martial arts, so I’m only talking from what I have read and been told.

Bak Hok Pai is the tibetan martial art. They focus more on cultivation.

Bak Hok Kuen is the fukien (fujian) version from shaolin. The focus more on the forms like sleeping crane, calling crane, eating crane, etc.

I don’t know the actual differences in fighting and training.

[This message has been edited by Paul Skrypichayko (edited 05-04-2000).]

37

Paul,

I don’t think it originated from shaolin but it may have become associated with shaolin because it was being taught there. But that doesn’t really matter anyway as it is quite debatable where a style came from due to so much mixing and changes over the course of history. It is probably a steady evolution over the course of time that is linked to the development of a number of styles in that geographic region in the same period rather than a revolutionary idea developed by one or a small group of people.

Anyway, I would like to ask you if you would be able to share your knowledge regarding the concepts contained in sleeping crane, eating crane etc.

38

Wildman,

Good point you made. People are too concerned about the little details. It doesnt really matter where it came from, who practiced it, etc. It is just classified as being in the family of shaolin.

I know that Yang Jwing Ming practices sleeping crane, eating crane, etc, but he may also practice tibetan crane as well.

My master learned a little bit of that same crane style when he was younger in Hong Kong (just to give him a different perspective). He just commented about its effectiveness, good training methods, and how it is so damn unique compared to more common southern “shaolin type” martial arts (hung gar, choy li fut, wing chun, etc.)

39

Tibetan WhiteCrane is comepletely different with Fujian WhiteCrane.

As u can tell from the name, the areas which they r originated r way too far. they have no relations at all.

BakHokSamFu- KwongBonFu, LukChiFu, ChanHokFu

KwongBonFu is my SiGung, LukChiFu is a KF brother of KBF, ChanHokFu is a my Si-Bak(uncle)

They r all famous and well-respected masters in BakHokPai.

they are called BakHokSamFu, cuz their name all ends with same character(Fu).

P.S i’ve heard of YangJwingMing, but i never heard that he trained in Tibetan BakHokPai, i wonder who he trained under.

40

Paul,

What does your instructor train in besides crane? Are the names you’ve mentioned “sleeping crane”, “eating crane” etc different branches of the crane style or are they different concepts of the crane style? In general terms, what are the combat tactics of a crane practitioner?