As per a suggestion by TenTigers let’s talk about the other White Crane: the “lama fist” style of Ng Siu Jung (and his brother, Siu Chan) in all its various permutations. There have been some experienced and knowledgable posters here in recent years. Let’s hope we can draw them in.
Okay, perhaps you could get the ball rolling by telling us about the beginnings of Tibetan White Crane!
Does it owe any of it’s beginnings to the Fuzhou variety?
Was it’s origins strictly in the realm of Fighting Arts?
I noticed that from the small exposure I had in TWC, there were some short hand techniques similar to Fukien/Hakka/Siu-Lum crane. Bong-sao, gaun-sau, and also the hooking and crane’s beak strike-nearly identical to Siu Lum Hung Kuen.
I understand that there was some trading in the system, and some TWC systems have a variation of the five animal fist from Siu-Lum Hung Kuen. (Deng family Hop-Ga also uses the Kiu-sao single finger hand)
What can you add to this?
How many types of TWC is there and how does Lama Pai / LionsRoar fit into it?
Si Ji Hao branched into three-Lama P’ai, Hop-Ga, and Bak Hok P’ai. Variations exist within the styles,and many share the same sets.
It would be very cool to see a side by side comparison. There is a youtube vid floating about with Lama P’ai Sifu Michael Parella exchanging information with Hop-Ga Sifu David Rogers.
I’ve seen some TWC that is “tyical” long range stuff ( kicks with both arms out for balance, lots of “CLF” type long looping strikes, etc) BUT have also seen LR/LP stuff that was as inclose as SPM.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1174794]Si Ji Hao branched into three-Lama P’ai, Hop-Ga, and Bak Hok P’ai. Variations exist within the styles,and many share the same sets.
It would be very cool to see a side by side comparison. There is a youtube vid floating about with Lama P’ai Sifu Michael Parella exchanging information with Hop-Ga Sifu David Rogers.[/QUOTE]
Mike’s stuff on youtube is great.
Big loss when he stopped posting here…
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1174796]I’ve seen some TWC that is “tyical” long range stuff ( kicks with both arms out for balance, lots of “CLF” type long looping strikes, etc) BUT have also seen LR/LP stuff that was as inclose as SPM.[/QUOTE]
People from Mark Foon’s school learned a TWC form prior to learning SPM. My SPM teacher showed me bits n bobs from it, and from what I can see, it is using many of the same body angles when striking, although much larger. Mark Foon was a Master in TWC and I believe Hung Kuen as well prior to studying with Lam Sang. The foundation in a larger frame boxing style develops the “engines” for a more compact system.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1174800]People from Mark Foon’s school learned a TWC form prior to learning SPM. My SPM teacher showed me bits n bobs from it, and from what I can see, it is using many of the same body angles when striking, although much larger. Mark Foon was a Master in TWC and I believe Hung Kuen as well prior to studying with Lam Sang. The foundation in a larger frame boxing style develops the “engines” for a more compact system.[/QUOTE]
Very much so, going from “big to small” really develops the engine much better than diving it at “small”.
I am sure some can make it work from the start of course.
The commonality of many southern systems is that, start big and end small.
I recall one person mentioning that he believed that the southern short hand systems are all just “expressions” of an original long hand one.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1174790]I noticed that from the small exposure I had in TWC, there were some short hand techniques similar to Fukien/Hakka/Siu-Lum crane. Bong-sao, gaun-sau, and also the hooking and crane’s beak strike-nearly identical to Siu Lum Hung Kuen.
I understand that there was some trading in the system, and some TWC systems have a variation of the five animal fist from Siu-Lum Hung Kuen. (Deng family Hop-Ga also uses the Kiu-sao single finger hand)
What can you add to this?[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you are referring to the Siu Ng Yim kune part of it? Never seen performed the Da Ng Yim Kune but I’ve heard they are two different beasts altogether.
I have only started training in Tibetan White Crane. Due to my prior experience with other kung fu styles, my teacher allowed me to follow along while he performed his version of Siu Ng Ying. From the versions I have seen on Youtube (there is a version done in Singapore that is floating around), my teacher’s version is much longer and consists of long range arm movements, kiu sau, as well as animal movements.
I study TWC my sifu is from the Nig-Siu-Chung - Ngai-Yah-Tong linage. in fact I have never seen any forms posted on youtube or elsewhere that are the same as ours. I have seen techniques that are similar to ours and all our history and philosophy are consistent with the vast majority or Pok Hok Pai /Lama Pi/ Hap Ga. While there are some similar movements in TWC to the Fujian type there is no common history or linage. Sometimes what works works for all humans and those who seek find similar answers to common questions. I will be happy to attempt to answer questions concerning TWC to the best of my ability.
Perhaps the short-hand techniques were a result of Wong Yun-Lum exchanging knowledge with other Southern stylists, such as Wong Kei-Ying? I had heard this is also where the Siu Ng Ying Kuen originated as well.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1174790](Deng family Hop-Ga also uses the Kiu-sao single finger hand)
What can you add to this?[/QUOTE]
There are some who think that the single finger bridge hand originated from Lama/Haap Ga, at least as far as Hung Kyun is concerned.
[QUOTE=illusionfist;1175030]There are some who think that the single finger bridge hand originated from Lama/Haap Ga, at least as far as Hung Kyun is concerned.[/QUOTE]
yes, I’ve heard this as well.
Here’s the mystery; Some say that the Lamists were not involved in Fan Ching Fuk Ming, but obviously Wong Yun-Lum was. Perhaps the info to the contrary came more from bad Kung-Fu movies…
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1175033]yes, I’ve heard this as well.
Here’s the mystery; Some say that the Lamists were not involved in Fan Ching Fuk Ming, but obviously Wong Yun-Lum was. Perhaps the info to the contrary came more from bad Kung-Fu movies…[/QUOTE]
I once read a website that stated the official history of Bak Mei.
It was the story from “Executioners from Shaolin”.
So, you may be more right than you know.
Can’t speak for the other two traditions (Lama and Hop Gar) but in the Pak Hok that I know or seen so far the Kiu Sao is present only in Siu Ng Yin Kune and for few movements really.
Some one in Hong Kong told me that in the 80’s or 90’s came out an article on a local magazine saying that the Lama tradition was a “new” invention made out to stand out of the “crowed”
Regardless of the historical issue it’s truly a wonderful system
records from the Deng family in guangzhou show Wong Yan lam was a rebel fighting the ching.
In Hong Kong Choy Yee Kung walked with a limp because he was trying to escape with Wong Yan Lam from Ching Govt soliders and got stabbed in the leg.
The poems for Cotton in the needle from white crane and Noi Baht Moon hop ga form has hung moon theories in it.
I’ve seen articles on the web mentioning the ‘long range techniques’ of Lama. From my own evaluation of what would make sense, it has always seemed that the waist twisting in lau sing kyuhn and other basic techniques are meant to be delivered from close in. Stance breaking, disrupting space, shoulder bashing, destroying bridges, then either delivering a knockout blow unseen from an angle or taking balance and throwing.
I just really couldn’t imagine throwing a bin cup, pau choi or chyuhn choi from jabbing range or from a range where the opponent would have a chance to see it and react. I see all these techniques, and most of the others I know, being used close in, almost from standing clinch range or a little further apart. I do understand this is the ‘lowest’ level of Lama and that there are more advanced short hand techiniques I am unaware of.
I’d be interested to hear comments on this from people who have access to a sifu, as I’m practicing on my own with what I remember.
[QUOTE=Minghequan;1174743]Okay, perhaps you could get the ball rolling by telling us about the beginnings of Tibetan White Crane!
Does it owe any of it’s beginnings to the Fuzhou variety?
Was it’s origins strictly in the realm of Fighting Arts?[/QUOTE]
No origin story can be verified. The official story is that it began in the fifteenth century during the reign of the third Ming emperor. This tale might be designed to identify some parts of its history with a Han Chinese culture–or it might be simple truth. The “lama” styles were mostly passed down through Hung societies and share a lot of symbolism.
As far as I know, no Chinese system is strictly about fighting. The fighting schools were also political and commercial organizations that supported special groups. Add the religious and cultural trappings and you get a unique group identity.
All of the first three or four generations of teachers in Southern China were known fighters, though. Had to be. Ng Siu Jung no less than the others.