Been studying economics lately.
Was thinking maybe CMA has been influenced negatively by China’s recent past, mainly a closed off, non-competitive central planned system.
Likewise, MMA is as free a market as you can get. Bring whatever you want and the competition itself will define the standard and weed out the garbage.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;875703]Been studying economics lately.
Was thinking maybe CMA has been influenced negatively by China’s recent past, mainly a closed off, non-competitive central planned system.
Likewise, MMA is as free a market as you can get. Bring whatever you want and the competition itself will define the standard and weed out the garbage.[/QUOTE]
I would say more like the philosophy of Confucius, the traditional structure of Chinese martial arts is based on the teachings of Confucius. The Chinese Communists also made use of Confucius by sort of mixing Marxists theory with traditional Chinese classical education & thought.
since the politics brought up;
There are 4 gen of leaderships from CPC or CCP.
all the movements, great leap forward, cultural revolution, practice of communisms actually bankbrupt the economics, made million’s hunger, They did not work or failed miserably.
something had to be changed or reversed back. open door, free flow of goods and money. money/capital was considered vehicle of persecution of workers and farmers, but no more. China tried to pick up whatever is left over from 10 years of cultural depletion or wreckage.
open door to the west and free flow of foreign capital/investment continued, all the coast cities were developed while the countryside and the big far west still waiting.
open door not just the economic, but slowly some political freedom at local elections.
China is changing fast or embracing the west/capitalism.
They are educating/training the largest pool of talents, business management, engineers,–
They are looking at 21st century and not late 18th, 19th or 20 th centuries.
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actually, CPC has to continue to change or being buried by the history as all other former commie are not there any more.
This is the same for vietnam, cuba, north korea.
if they dun change, they will be changed.
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ROTFL that was the biggest pile of absolute nonsense I’ve seen in a long time.
Sorry Ray, usually see eye-to-eye with you but… seriously… CMA’s problem is NOT that China is titularly “communist”…
And the issue of China’s so-called communism is a whole 'nother can of worms.
Actually, I think Ray makes a lot of sense with that idea.
Infact, I think it is the most brilliant observation seen on this forum in a long, long time.
I think the problem many see is not even related to the communist government. What about all the crap called Kung Fu that spread out BEFORE and on the eve of the communist takeover?
Ray it would help the debate if you can list what you think are the negative influences in CMA.
Well, this wasn’t so long thought out theory. Just came to me the other day in passing.
I love Shanghai. I’ve been there twice. Awesome city and awesome people.
I’m suggesting, just putting it out there, that older Chinese, say like my master, were brought up perhaps not to question certain things or be competitive. At least not outwardly.
While MMA is the direct result from wanting to not only compete, but welcome everyone and all styles.
I think many CMA schools still operate with this paradigm. They don’t want to be compared with other fighting systems, say western boxing, thai boxing, BJJ… they cut themselves off, compete amongst themselves. An environment like this is ripe for mysticism (I’m thinking chi, alters, incense) … a way to bring “value add” or differentiation for those who are drawn to martial arts but don’t want to sweat or bleed.
[QUOTE=WinterPalm;875719]I think the problem many see is not even related to the communist government. What about all the crap called Kung Fu that spread out BEFORE and on the eve of the communist takeover?[/QUOTE]
I don’t think Chinese Martial Arts had problems in the past, particularly before the advent and wide circulation of the gun… China has a wonderful history of military proficiency. It brought us the Art of War, flame throwers, gun powder and some would argue the foundation for a multitude of modern empty hand methods.
Kung Fu’s “problem”, from a martial art standpoint, is that it stopped being functional as a whole. Sure, there are schools and clans that may be keeping it real, but that’s not the rule, it’s the exception.
And what do I mean by functional? Functional to me, is at the very least maintaining the present standards of combat. And by that standard, most CMA players fall waaay short in conditioning, resistance training, free form sparring and fighting. They’re all related.
If you train with a significant warm up – not to waste time, but to improve attributes and ability … drill with resistance, then spar for multiple rounds with multiple partners… you’re going to become a lean, mean, fighting machine. A good number of those guys want to go out to fight. It pushes everyone in the gym. It raises performance.
Those are fine arguments Ray but how does that relate to the Communist government, if that is what you meant by your thread title?
I think the insularity you highlight was already prevalent before the Communists came to power.
And what do I mean by functional? Functional to me, is at the very least maintaining the present standards of combat. And by that standard, most CMA players fall waaay short in conditioning, resistance training, free form sparring and fighting. They’re all related.
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What Kung Fu schools have you been going to? I have never seen a Kung Fu school where you were not conditioned to the hilt in every possible way, nor have I seen one that does not free fight, spar and fight.
Everyone always talks about these mythical schools, but I have never actually seen one.
not to sideline the conversation, but …I understand the reference to ch’i as mysticism, but altars and insence are to pay respect to the founders and past masters of the style. Guan Gung is honored for his chivalry,morality, courage, and virtue. He is a role model. It is not worship so much as it is respect.
Certainly not mysticism.
-unless you are invoking their spirits into you:eek:
Not exactly TT. Guangong actually has been elevated to the level of a deity. He is ALSO venerated for his virtues.
Did somebody mention guan gong?
I heard that the movie red cliff is too flashy not so “truthfully” protrayed.
Guan gong was supposed to be high, and tall to wield the guan dao.
It is not just a red face.
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have to wait for dvd to see part I of red cliff now showing in China.
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Im tempted to jump in and say I’m actually very much for a communist type government, but then I was reminded I am surrounded by Americans ;). No-one might ever want to speak with me again. 
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;875703]Been studying economics lately.
Was thinking maybe CMA has been influenced negatively by China’s recent past, mainly a closed off, non-competitive central planned system.
Likewise, MMA is as free a market as you can get. Bring whatever you want and the competition itself will define the standard and weed out the garbage.[/QUOTE]
Well, Communism in China is based on Marxism-Leninism of which central economic planning is key. The problem specific to CMA is that the doctrine of democratic centralism, which encourage grassroot participation was used as a tool to drawn out the educated and the skilled citizen whom are then persecuted. Those who left to oversee the centralizing of CMA were not intelligent enough to even discern the difference between martial sports and martial arts. Hack, they don’t even have a clue what’s the difference between dancing and Kung Fu forms. It’s like asking a farm tracker’s driver to design a concept car. That’s why modern Wushu is FUBAR to the Nth degree!!! Then you have those Communist collaborators who have formal traditional CMA training that thought it would be a good idea to just do as they are told. That’s why we have such a fiasco these days.
This is just what is on the surface. The real philosophical issue is the Dialectical Materialism that denies human needs, desires, and endeavors. Not only is Dialectical Materialism foreign to Chinese thoughts it is also contradictory to the most central principle of TCMA - moral. Morality is autonomy of will. Ancient Chinese understood this very well and have spent thousands of years working on it. But no thanks to people like Mao and others who really have little to no understanding of Chinese culture (ironic - I know) that they got duped into believing heteronomy of will that is the preaching of Dialectical Materialism.
Well, idiocy is not a crime per se but it can be a deadly Sin as seen in the PRC. I just hope that one day the disease of idiocy amongst the “politicians” all over the world could be cured.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;875724]I don’t think Chinese Martial Arts had problems in the past, particularly before the advent and wide circulation of the gun… China has a wonderful history of military proficiency. It brought us the Art of War, flame throwers, gun powder and some would argue the foundation for a multitude of modern empty hand methods.
Kung Fu’s “problem”, from a martial art standpoint, is that it stopped being functional as a whole. Sure, there are schools and clans that may be keeping it real, but that’s not the rule, it’s the exception.
And what do I mean by functional? Functional to me, is at the very least maintaining the present standards of combat. And by that standard, most CMA players fall waaay short in conditioning, resistance training, free form sparring and fighting. They’re all related.
If you train with a significant warm up – not to waste time, but to improve attributes and ability … drill with resistance, then spar for multiple rounds with multiple partners… you’re going to become a lean, mean, fighting machine. A good number of those guys want to go out to fight. It pushes everyone in the gym. It raises performance.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this post but what I was saying is that much of the TCMA we see in North America came from before the Communist party and the cultural revolution.
If anything, China has been quite closed off historically, and they may have something to do with it. But I think the digression of TCMA is based on people no longer fighting/having to fight.
Most of what holds back TCMA is rooted in what in China would be called “Feudalism” ie traditional Chinese culture and values…
Features of feudalistic thinking would include an exaggerated sense of importance (ie China is the “middle” and no need to look outside Chinese tradition), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc…
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;875732]
I have never seen a Kung Fu school where you were not conditioned to the hilt in every possible way, nor have I seen one that does not free fight, spar and fight.
Everyone always talks about these mythical schools, but I have never actually seen one.[/QUOTE]
I can name several Kung Fu schools on Long Island and in NYC that I would say, and of course this is all relative to one’s perspective and standard, that are very far from meeting these standards.
The standard would appear something like this: guys who have been training for 2 years or more are ripped! Six packs! Strong backs and shoulders. Strong legs. After class people are laying around gassed.
Sorry, I’m familiar with a lot of Kung Fu schools in NY and the students aren’t like this.
As for fighting standard… free play is daily. Not weekly or monthly. There’s no time to waist on forms. It’s conditioning and drilling technique. Drilling attributes. Then banging. Guys in the gym have fought. Guys in the gym are preparing for a fight. This sort of environment is contagious and pushes everyone.
I think to save time a better question might be what Kung Fu school in NY does train this way, with the exception of Coach Ross’ (does he consider his school a kwoon?)?
[QUOTE=TenTigers;875736]not to sideline the conversation, but …I understand the reference to ch’i as mysticism, but altars and insence are to pay respect to the founders and past masters of the style. Guan Gung is honored for his chivalry,morality, courage, and virtue. He is a role model. It is not worship so much as it is respect.
Certainly not mysticism.[/QUOTE]
I honestly see it as marketing. In the states, how many of your practitionars are Buddhist or Confucionist? In Christianity and Judaism that would be idle worship. And I think it’s a distraction.
You know how crazy these wanna-be Shaolin monk types are. This sort of thing just feeds that behavior.
Everyone talks about all these moral aspects that are supposed to be taught in martial arts but it’s not real. Those lessons are learned via proper training.
You come in and you sweat and you work hard. You gain respect for your classmates and yourself. You improve. Your standards for yourself improve. You become even better and gain confidence. That peace of self is reflected in the way you treat others.
It’s this grandious idea that somehow