The yik kam slt training process

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
61

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1207241]This conversation interests me on a few fronts. First, thanks for the bow and string discussion guys. Very interesting.

Ali’s point to me brings up an important WCK concept. In TCM, we see a lot of animal imitation. Snake, crane, tiger, monkey, mantis, etc. Here’s an extreme example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxq-tC4CDcE

While there can be valuable movement and things learned from animal imitation, at the very core a human’s muscle and skeletal construction is unique and fighting movements are better served functioning according to how we are made up as opposed to how a crane or snake is made up.

However, I don’t want to discount Hendrik’s power generation development. What I like about it is it seems to be a relaxed fluid power generation and movement generation. To me relaxed and fluid movement under pressure with power generation is a very important thing to develop.

So anyway, a few things I like about the thread discussion.[/QUOTE]

It is not about mimic snake or crane it is using the snake or crane as symbol for communication.

Such as coil spring or bow, one can call it coil spring body instead of snake body. However one called it is a way of implementation only. However, in tcma field and history, this coil spring or snake body is a know DNA of emei 12 zhuang. thus, one knows the engine of siu Lin tau is from emei. It has to.

And siu Lin tau from the red boat must has the coil spring body develop otherwise it is a different type of art. Even though one can talk about the center line theory, what do we think grandmaster like yip man practicing slt for hours for?

We do know the DNA of WCK in the red boat with evidence today, emei snake engine or coil spring engine is un avoidable because that is the soul of the siu Lin tau from red boat era lineages.

62

You are a perfect westernized man, live in a western managerial world, taking yourself as reference of the proper .

That is great, stay where you love to be.

your world doesn’t include mine and you don’t have to live in my world, however, I know yours world very well, nothing good or bad but another world.

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1207233]Say that to a Judge who just made the Supreme Court, asks that to a Marine who just came home a hero or even a police officer; use that line of questioning to a high school principle or a son who just made a touchdown in front of his father or a daughter who did 3-4 years in ROTC.

What you are asking me is to weigh in or measure a structure that has always been a natural component of supporting our bodys anatomy to something that you and others here just came into within the latter part of your lives, compared to what every medical doctor and parent/grandparents alike has taught us.

AND they make computer chairs that the CIA designed that keeps the spine in line, I chose to walk and sit like a man of honor AND NOT sit with the insecurities of a street bum. Your statement holds no merit, and that line of questioning or negotiation falls on the one who has very bad natural posture while teaching structures of heath.

Im not here to debate your medicine or remedies, but to call it like everyone here sees it. If those categories that you mention on how to walk looks like Hendrik, then I want no part of it.[/QUOTE]

63

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1207251]You are a perfect westernized man, live in a western managerial world, taking yourself as reference of the proper .

That is great, stay where you love to be.

your world doesn’t include mine and you don’t have to live in my world, however, I know yours world very well, nothing good or bad but another world.[/QUOTE]

Im glad you think you know my way of life because your posture doesnt show it, and if you do; youre just plain lazy to the contrary or- just a very weak person in general.

You speak of many proper structures while I only speak of one (your natural posture). I just dont understand your line of reasoning; while youre being a hypocrite at the same time.

64

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1207244]It is not about mimic snake or crane it is using the snake or crane as symbol for communication.
[/quote]

It’s not a great symbol of communication as I see far too many people mimicking “animal body” stances and postures that don’t fit the human body well.

I know you are talking about a power generation technique that is relaxed and I know your views on red boat wck. I don’t personally subscribe to all your viewpoints on that but can appreciate your view and what you are striving to develop. I do look at your videos for what I can pick up from them.

65

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1207264]It’s not a great symbol of communication as I see far too many people mimicking “animal body” stances and postures that don’t fit the human body well.

I know you are talking about a power generation technique that is relaxed and I know your views on red boat wck. I don’t personally subscribe to all your viewpoints on that but can appreciate your view and what you are striving to develop. I do look at your videos for what I can pick up from them.[/QUOTE]

It is the WCK ancestors’ choice , they can called it what they want. I am just relay information .

what others do by thier own is their freedom, however, that doesn’t mean it is WCK disregard how they think it is.

If one study WCK one empty ones cup and follow exactly what the WCK ancestors teaching , there is no room for self interpretation. One is free to do what want like , but unless one develop as the wing Chun teaching prescribe , one really cannot know what it is. As I always say, a worn can never know what is a butterfly way. Disregard how much it thinks it knows.

As I say, it is not me, I am just presenting the 1850 wing Chun kuen teaching in the red boat as it is with evidence.

A side topic,

I have observe a strange phenomenon of people resisting the ancestor way but trying to see what they can take from the ancestors teaching for thier practice. They want Wing Chun their way but then they don’t have a way. How difficult is it just to admit, I don’t know, thus, I learn from the ancestors, because they know WCK, I don’t know.

Just take a look at the siu Lin tau set practice, see how many get the snake engine. How many get close, how many try very hard but missed the point, how many has evolved the set and practice a totally different art?

It is just a simple thing for me, just say, I don’t know, I learn from the WCK ancetor teaching. Instead of getting into oh I am the older lineage, i am a secrete high hand lineage, my WCK is the best olderst…ect, but can not even develop the basic Jin of WCK , the force rise from ground Jin . Just take a look at those southern tcma stance and jamming of the knees and lower back , over tuck and hold the tail bone, all kinds of things, how is that suppose to get the force rise up from ground Jin of WCK? It can’t because it has violate the human body nature. So, why do people see this? Hahaha.

Some says tan sau Ng create WCK and …ect. Well, does Tan sau Ng tan sau has the snake engine and force rise up from ground Jin ? If not that is not WCK tan sau. If yes, then tan sau Ng cannot be the creator of WCK because the snake engine is a signature of emei, one can never find that in shaolin in the past few thousands of years. Just take a look at vtm WCK evolution proposal, does any of the red flag, black flag set develop the basic force rise from ground Jin as one can see Gm ip man has practicing his tan sau picture? It is simple signature but people choose to avoid looking a facts.

And the consequence is paying a big price of totally wasted the energy of slt snt practice because the practice doesn’t develop WCK as needed. The new estimate is 4 millions people practice WCK. And how many develop the snake engine or basic Jin? It is time for wcners to wake up. Look at the reality, get the facts. And dont waste the effort.

66

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1207233]
I’m not here to debate your medicine or remedies, but to call it like everyone here sees it. If those categories that you mention on how to walk looks like Hendrik, then I want no part of it.[/QUOTE]

LOL, that old wing chun saying I mentioned has nothing to do with walking and posture and is unrelated to the satirical comment in my last post, regarding asking you how I should stand up straight.

Sorry if I confused you.

67

animal arts

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1207264]It’s not a great symbol of communication as I see far too many people mimicking “animal body” stances and postures that don’t fit the human body well.[/QUOTE]

Hello Wayfarer. You bring up a good point I have always noticed. When talking of ‘animal forms’ there are two ways to approach this type of training. The most obvious type of training is what I call ‘signature styles’; crane’s beak, tiger claw, monkey palm, etc. The Ancestors, living in a pristine world as they did, observed nature constantly and adopted another set of training values based upon the way animals generated energy and through the generations adapted that type of energy generation to their respective arts. I like Hendrik’s metaphor of ‘engines’ to describe the power generation of a technique that does not necessarily demonstrate an animal signature.

There is another consideration when analyzing the energy principles and that is environment. Consider that you live and grow up on a boat. (Many people do in Hong Kong) What kind of martial art will that develop? You cannot move around a lot. Everything is close quarters. The technique has to be tight, to the extreme. How do you generate and what type of energy do you utilize to make close quarters combat technique work? Obviously it requires a set of principles that are reliable and Henrik has termed these ‘engines’ (love that metaphor).

So in summary you have two types of animal training- signature and energetic. The other factor is environment. Hope this helps and if I misinterpreted anything, Hendrik, please let me know. All the best.
SKM

68

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1207257]I’m glad you think you know my way of life because your posture doesn’t show it, and if you do; you’re just plain lazy to the contrary –or- just a very weak person in general.

You speak of many proper structures while I only speak of one (your natural posture). I just don’t understand your line of reasoning; while you’re being a hypocrite at the same time.[/QUOTE]

Hahaha, don’t understand me, live in your world where you feel comfortable.

69

[QUOTE=Paddington;1207272]LOL, that old wing chun saying I mentioned has nothing to do with walking and posture and is unrelated to the satirical comment in my last post, regarding asking you how I should stand up straight.

Sorry if I confused you.[/QUOTE]

I’m sure I could ask you tons of questions dealing with hydraulics and see how you can answer them back; I’m bond to get a laugh as well. I see that you’re defending Hendrik’s every move and I’m only taking about his natural posture, and you want me to talk about something that I’ve have no knowledge of within a eastern sense in which I’ve already stated, what did you just prove here?

This statement says all it for me, because none of you guys here have certified knowledge of what you are presenting as fact, again I’m not saying it isn’t true. But the ones who bring forth this information are full contradiction, hypocrisies, and games.

What you are asking me is to weigh in or measure a structure that has always been a natural component of supporting our body’s anatomy to something that you and others here just came into within the latter part of your lives, compared to what every medical doctor and parent/grandparents alike has taught us.

And if you can’t figure out how to stand up straight within a western sense of understand, it would only make sense that you go eastern. Or frankly why would you take that line of argument? BS

70

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1207286]Im sure I could ask you tons of questions dealing with hydraulics and see how you can answer them back; Im bond to get a laugh as well. I see that youre defending Hendriks every move and Im only taking about his natural posture, and you want me to talk about something that Ive have no knowledge of within a eastern sense in which Ive already stated, what did you just prove here?

This statement says all it for me, because none of you guys here have certified knowledge of what you are presenting as fact, again Im not saying it isnt true. But the ones who bring forth this information are full contradiction, hypocrisies, and games.

What you are asking me is to weigh in or measure a structure that has always been a natural component of supporting our bodys anatomy to something that you and others here just came into within the latter part of your lives, compared to what every medical doctor and parent/grandparents alike has taught us.

And if you cant figure out how to stand up straight within a western sense of understand, it would only make sense that you go eastern. Or frankly why would you take that line of argument? BS[/QUOTE]

I am not defending his every move. The saying I was talking about is a well known ‘wing chun’ saying and it is also well known what ‘bow’ means in a Chinese wing chun sense i.e. the translation. None of that is controversial, bud. Nor is describing 7 bows or joints controversial in wing chun, those ideas are shared across many lineages.

I am not asking you to ‘weigh in or measure a structure’. I was just trying to move you from your straw man argument levied at Henrik, to something more constructive. The way I did that was to ask you a question about that saying, given these other uncontroversial reference points used to talk about wing chun.

BTW, I am not saying I accept all of Hendrik’s reference points.

EDIT: I should make clear that I was taking the p*** asking you how I should stand up straight. Sorry if you did not spot the sarcasm there. Anyway…

71

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1207283]Hahaha, don’t understand me, live in your world where you feel comfortable.[/QUOTE]

Following you is like getting a root canal from a dentist that has a mouth full of cavities or going to a psychiatrist who has a bipolar disorder.

Learn to stand up straight oh master of health and structures.

72

Honestly, I am ok with different ideas.

The issue of Chinese martial art is, a system has its uniquness engine and it unique application technics .

Say a hung ga tan sau and a WCK tan sau. They will look close in photo.

But WCK is power the tan sau with snake engine or force rise from ground Jin and probe directly to the opponent center line. While a hung ga is power it’s tan sau differently and the application is different too. So from the opponent side, the power one feel from these two looking close tan sau is different.

So, I really careless about name or term…ect. What I do care is the engine development process and the application based on after the development or transformation complete. Only then we know what it is. Otherwise , we think we knw but we don’t.

As in this snake body crane limbs transformation YouTube, if one practice follow all the transformation steps, within two week or less of one hour daily practice, one will develop the snake engine and the basic Jin. However, without a process one will never get to know what is that basic Jin of WCK handling like.

So, called it anything, I careless, but do we really know what it is. Transformation and development is never about thinking but practice. That is what we modern people missed, we think we can go to a seminal and learning some theory and strategy we will master the art. Not to know we don’t even know what we are talking about.

And in ancient time, it is purposely one keep the process Away from others reach ,and that create problem in the transmission of the art. Because without process, there is no engine, one then can play make believe thinking or interprets the sets as they want. But they never get anything real deal develop.

As I said, IMHO, there are four millions wcners, how many develop the snake engine even they practice deligently? So, I open up this utube is to let those who likes to taste the tea taste it, if they empty thier cup and develop it. ToO much theory argument and ideas are just wasting the time, taste the tea and tell the world in your own words what it is. That is what I hope will happen.
It is all about education.

[QUOTE=SKM;1207278]Hello Wayfarer. You bring up a good point I have always noticed. When talking of ‘animal forms’ there are two ways to approach this type of training. The most obvious type of training is what I call ‘signature styles’; crane’s beak, tiger claw, monkey palm, etc. The Ancestors, living in a pristine world as they did, observed nature constantly and adopted another set of training values based upon the way animals generated energy and through the generations adapted that type of energy generation to their respective arts. I like Hendrik’s metaphor of ‘engines’ to describe the power generation of a technique that does not necessarily demonstrate an animal signature.

There is another consideration when analyzing the energy principles and that is environment. Consider that you live and grow up on a boat. (Many people do in Hong Kong) What kind of martial art will that develop? You cannot move around a lot. Everything is close quarters. The technique has to be tight, to the extreme. How do you generate and what type of energy do you utilize to make close quarters combat technique work? Obviously it requires a set of principles that are reliable and Henrik has termed these ‘engines’ (love that metaphor).

So in summary you have two types of animal training- signature and energetic. The other factor is environment. Hope this helps and if I misinterpreted anything, Hendrik, please let me know. All the best.
SKM[/QUOTE]

73

Btw, in the coming issue of new martial hero, there are going to discuss two red boat era 1850 writing on slt from two Trackable known redboat lineges. After that the wcners will have a classical WCK reference when they practice WCK. Classical internal writing is no longer a luxury of taiji chuan or northen internal art, WCK has a very sold collection too. Wcners will be happy with these.

Per today, we have move to pre Leung jan era. Most history of WCK today is based on Leung jan , but now we are moving into pre Leung jan era with evidence.

In fact may be even sooner that that we can passed out the screen saver version of choegrafy of these writing so all wcner can have it in their screen if they like.

74

[QUOTE=Paddington;1207288]I am not asking you to ‘weigh in or measure a structure’. I was just trying to move you from your straw man argument levied at Henrik, to something more constructive.[/QUOTE]

There’s nothing Im dealing with that deals with straw men within the fact that one doesnt want to learn anything of health that’s coming from a man that looks sickly and with bad natural posture. Unless thats what you chose to use in defense of Hendrik.

Im sure you wouldnt find a person in their right mind that would train with anyone on a consistent bases dealing with health that looks unhealthy and with bad posture as Hendrik has. And where is the straw man in that?

Common sense would clearly show thats its the other way around.

75

Hahaha

I have a bad posture and you have an ill mind. So, hahahaha.

Could you go somewhere else to release your view? May be open up a new threat with the title Hendrik is full of it…etc? That satisfy you better. And may be you can get lots of people agree with you and you guys happly discredit me as much as possible and get high out of it. Hahaha, why not? Stress relief.

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1207303]There’s nothing Im dealing with that deals with straw men within the fact that one doesnt want to learn anything of health that coming from a man that looks sickly and with bad natural posture. Unless thats what you chose to use in defense of Hendrik.

Im sure you wouldnt find a person in their right mind that would train with anyone on a consistent bases dealing with health that looks unhealthy and with bad posture as Hendrik has. And where is the straw man in that?

Common sense would clearly show thats its the other way around.[/QUOTE]

76

Once again, hypocrisy is at work.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1207305]Hahaha

I have a bad posture and you have an ill mind. So, hahahaha.

Could you go somewhere else to release your view? May be open up a new threat with the title Hendrik is full of it…etc? That satisfy you better. And may be you can get lots of people agree with you and you guys happly discredit me as much as possible and get high out of it. Hahaha, why not? Stress relief.[/QUOTE]

You release yours and I release my views, and if youre having so much fun; why do you want me to hide or keep quoting me in the process?

77

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1207313]You release yours and I release my views, and if you’re having so much fun; why do you want me to hide or keep quoting me in the process?[/QUOTE]

You are just trolling. So, guys, here on, please not response to Ali .

78

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1207320]You are just trolling. So, guys, here on, please not response to Ali .[/QUOTE]

Im not looking for any information from you, so trolling is out of the question.

It seems that youre trying to convey the fact that the way you’ve been standing for years, before you even started mentioning all of this chi kung stuff and from a photo Ive seen of you in the past, more than seven years ago.

In which you had very bad posture then and still do now, is something youd been doing on purpose, when its clear as day that you just forgot to simply stand up straight, and by conveying the fact that it would be considered cosmetic to correct it.

And you want us all to find something wrong in what Im saying dealing with the fact of standing up straight to the point it would be considered trolling when it’s being elaborated on. Sorry, Im not Boo Boo the fool and most can see right through you.

79

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1207302]Btw, in the coming issue of new martial hero, there are going to discuss two red boat era 1850 writing on slt from two Trackable known redboat lineges. After that the wcners will have a classical WCK reference when they practice WCK. Classical internal writing is no longer a luxury of taiji chuan or northen internal art, WCK has a very sold collection too. Wcners will be happy with these.

Per today, we have move to pre Leung jan era. Most history of WCK today is based on Leung jan , but now we are moving into pre Leung jan era with evidence.

In fact may be even sooner that that we can passed out the screen saver version of choegrafy of these writing so all wcner can have it in their screen if they like.[/QUOTE]

Very exciting Hendrik. I picked this off of your facebook announcement:

The coming issue of New Martial Hero Magazine on sale by end of January. The contents include :

  1. Explore the source of the Snake and Crane elements of the Red Boat era Wing Chun
  2. The Red Boat Wing Chun code : Snake body and Crane limbs
  3. The Red Boat era Wing Chun core : YeeJeeKimYang platform

I am looking for an english edition of NMH and cannot find anything on google, either US or UK. Do you have any links to an english language addition, given any exist. Thank you. All the best.
SKM

80

I think you might want to contact them,
The first article is bilingual , the rest is in Chinese.

https://www.facebook.com/new.martial.hero.media

For the first time in the history, two unrelated WCK lineages co author articles to share the result of technicals signatures and evidence. We expect more red boat WCK lineages Will come out and share thier preserve jewels, which will lead to clarity and strengthen WCK for a new era to come.

With the Evidence in the new martial hero papers, WCK is by evident a legitimate internal art without question. These three papers addressing the core of WCK via a verifiable technical signature path within tcma and Chinese history . Another words, it is traceable deal . No longer as other WCK paper decades ago which based on stories.

The release of the snake body crane limbs transformation process YouTube is to present the practice which support the theory of these papers, that way one doesn’t have to guess but know exactly what , why , how . Thus, the information is released both with theory and practice a complete package. And everyone can investigate into it world wide , east or west. These whole things is for educational purpose on sharing what is extremely likely to happen in 1850 on board of the red boat practicing WCK. All wcners deserve to know.

Ofcorse we cannot go back to 1850 to see what is happen, but we can know what is extreme likely to happen, in the era pre Leong Jan, an era where Wang wah bo, leung yee dai, yik kam, lee man mau live.

[QUOTE=SKM;1207341]Very exciting Hendrik. I picked this off of your facebook announcement:

The coming issue of New Martial Hero Magazine on sale by end of January. The contents include :

  1. Explore the source of the Snake and Crane elements of the Red Boat era Wing Chun
  2. The Red Boat Wing Chun code : Snake body and Crane limbs
  3. The Red Boat era Wing Chun core : YeeJeeKimYang platform

I am looking for an english edition of NMH and cannot find anything on google, either US or UK. Do you have any links to an english language addition, given any exist. Thank you. All the best.
SKM[/QUOTE]