From what I have read, in previous centuries, it seems that new students would learn forms for years before moving on to other training. Is this true? If so, where would the teacher lead his student next? Would it move on to energy drills and sparring? And why were students only instructed to perform forms for the bulk of their early training?
One-for info on the forms-check the shaolin thread. It’s an eye opener.
Two-forms, when they were taught, unless they were specifically for structural alignment, breath, power generation, etc were taught last, and many times only to lineage bearers, as sort of a “diploma.” Drills and fighting were what was important.
The idea of forms takeing precedence over drills and fighting is a very recent innovation, and should be taken for what it is-something you step in when crossing a pasture.
[QUOTE=BruiserBrody;909472]From what I have read, in previous centuries, it seems that new students would learn forms for years before moving on to other training. Is this true? If so, where would the teacher lead his student next? Would it move on to energy drills and sparring? And why were students only instructed to perform forms for the bulk of their early training?[/QUOTE]
If you’re talking about Kung Fu and the history in China there is no way to know how they trained. We can all make educated guesses and there will be people here who will tell you they know exactly what went on. But in reality there’s been so much war, upheavel, revolution that 99% of any documentation has been lost.
for most of us now and before
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we practice single move all the time, solo, with props and with partner.
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conditioning would be most of time, postures, hiting, kicking, with pads, bags, etc
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free sparring is always part of the deal/practice.
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forms or no forms.
a simple answer to your question would be that a new student must prove himself worthy of the instruction. This could mean showing up everyday for months if not years before a teacher would feel obligated to show him something worth while.
I remember my friend Master Ting Fong Wong saying that his teacher in Canton would expcet them to do horse stance for the first year before anything else was shown… then forms for a few nmore years then if they had the determination to stick around this is when the true teachings began. a way to weed out the masses
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;909500]a simple answer to your question would be that a new student must prove himself worthy of the instruction. This could mean showing up everyday for months if not years before a teacher would feel obligated to show him something worth while.
I remember my friend Master Ting Fong Wong saying that his teacher in Canton would expcet them to do horse stance for the first year before anything else was shown… then forms for a few nmore years then if they had the determination to stick around this is when the true teachings began. a way to weed out the masses[/QUOTE]
My first tcma teacher went through this process. being orphaned at a young age, he was given to the temple that he was raised at in cambodia. although he was not permitted to learn the kungfu. he ended up staying in horse stance outside of the temple for as long as he could every day for months before he was allowed to enter and train. He was then trained by the grandmaster there until the master died and he came to america.
interestingly enough the master there had him cross trained in judo. its that mentality of the temple kungfu to cross train as a fighter. its somewhat common for temple ma’ists to study ‘abroad’ at other temples or by other monks. similar to a student exchange program 
similarly he was put into thai boxing matches to test his skills as a youth teenager. he was trained there in several styles of kungfu, including shaolin kungfu.
all you have to do is watch jackie chan, snake in the eagle’s shadow. and thats pretty much how schools were taught back then.
[QUOTE=Shaolinlueb;909514]all you have to do is watch jackie chan, snake in the eagle’s shadow. and thats pretty much how schools were taught back then.[/QUOTE]
err with the footprints on the ground & the mysterious texts?
why would you want to train the way they did centuries ago?
there are much better ways now, better equipment etc. the qigongs are still qigongs, cardio-vascular is still that, general conditioning is still that and there are less convoluted ideas about how to maintain ones health these days.
run-jog
do calisthenics
kick,punch,lock,throw
lift weight
do task specific attribute development
do supporting attribute development
voila! just like they did it centuries ago!
there are no secrets, just do the work.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;909500]a simple answer to your question would be that a new student must prove himself worthy of the instruction. This could mean showing up everyday for months if not years before a teacher would feel obligated to show him something worth while.
I remember my friend Master Ting Fong Wong saying that his teacher in Canton would expcet them to do horse stance for the first year before anything else was shown… then forms for a few nmore years then if they had the determination to stick around this is when the true teachings began. a way to weed out the masses[/QUOTE]
sounds like a way of ensuring the stupid stay
anyone with any sense would’nt stick doing that for a year, you need bang for buck
people dont have time to just spend a few years doing forms and horse stance
what happens if you get attacked within that progression period?
it also depends what you mean by “in previous centuries”
how far back are we going
i have a theory that alot of modern forms came about of teaching many people at once to a low standard but for a good price
to teach a contact sport you need training partnetrs and a good deal of one to one time
to teach a form you need one person to show the form, and 50 people to do it together and pay you! ahah
theres nothign wrong with alot of the techniques (alot are very exagerated in their delivery though) a unch is a punch and a claw to the face is a claw to the face
i think before the focus became on making money and preserving traditions
it was probably trained with alot of individual techniques trained singly and incorporated into live sparring and 2 man drills consisting of a few moves each (not long coreographed sequences like you see of 2 man drills these days)
[QUOTE=golden arhat;909531]sounds like a way of ensuring the stupid stay
anyone with any sense would’nt stick doing that for a year, you need bang for buck
people dont have time to just spend a few years doing forms and horse stance
what happens if you get attacked within that progression period?[/QUOTE]
they get their asses kicked, or they win. depends on how good the fighter is that attacks them. could just be a schmuck, because not everyone is a martial artists, assuming they arent, its an even fight.
generally this method was to ensure only the dedicated stay. of course i would never adhere to this. i wouldnt get taught if this were the case. were i raised in china in an atmosphere where this was the norm, i may be different.
many temples were and are still like this. they dont care want people just dropping by, soaking up some training then leaving. they want life long students. a lot of westerners have a problem grasping this old concept.
My understanding was the opposite of this and that what you’re talking about is stuff form movies.
Kung Fu is for fighting first and foremost and if it takes years of waving your hands in the air before you get to learn any actual combat stuff, you probably won’t stick around for long.
Consider if people in the old China days had to actually fight all the time, they would want to come in and learn something off the hop…something they could potentially use later that day.
[QUOTE=WinterPalm;909536]My understanding was the opposite of this and that what you’re talking about is stuff form movies.
Kung Fu is for fighting first and foremost and if it takes years of waving your hands in the air before you get to learn any actual combat stuff, you probably won’t stick around for long.
Consider if people in the old China days had to actually fight all the time, they would want to come in and learn something off the hop…something they could potentially use later that day.[/QUOTE]
exactly
china was (and is) a violent place!
[QUOTE=Pork Chop;909527]err with the footprints on the ground & the mysterious texts?[/QUOTE]
Wasn’t that “Spiritual Kung Fu?”
Forms were added to dilute martial arts. To change the focus from fighting to displays of athleticism. It was intentional and it worked.
think about this. a lot of people get involved in martial arts at different ages. some start at 5 some start at 10 or 12. people that start at 10 or 12 some times become better martial artists than those that start at 5, and vise versa.
its not so cut and dry.
for instance, my old sifu sat in horse stance for 6 months at the age of 5 before he was allowed to learn fighting…so he was what, 5 1/2, maybe 6 when he started to actually learn. i can tell you this guy is a badass, but dont take my word for it, come to portland and meet him.
but the point is, that he still started to learn the martial aspects when he was mentally and physically capable due to age. who fights seriously at 5? he did prove his dedication to his grandmaster, and was given a very good martial education. this isnt just theoretical air waving modern wushu either. this same grandmaster made him learn judo till he got to black belt. and made him fight in thai matches.
where do you think the movie makers go the ideas? from real life. It may not be common today, but i can assure you, in many instances this type of dedication prooving was not all that uncommon.
i know a man who went through this process and very traditional training methods from this century…these traditions are often kept very well in the temples. for instance, he studied for hours every day. one day he told me the average american student would have to study for years to reach the hours he put in in 6 months. full time training is also a pretty traditional aspect to martial temple life. pray, meditate, and practice martial arts.
he later in life studied under the same wushu master jet li did.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;909551]Forms were added to dilute martial arts. To change the focus from fighting to displays of athleticism. It was intentional and it worked.[/QUOTE]
i disagree. i believe that modernly this is the case. but there are some very old forms. shaolin for example
a guy may learn 1 form maybe 5 or maybe 10. doesnt take that much time. also if you are able to train full time. (which generally is not the case for most people, which is where part of the problem lies if you do too many forms ) forms may take up a very small percentage of your time, and allows you to catelog the techniques in a format that allows the practitioner to extract them, and at a later date pass on the format to others.
people always favor certain techniques. and will discard some. a form allows you to pass on the combined techniques from said style, including the ones you personally discard and do not fully master. someone else may want to master a particular technique from your style, that you perhaps did not use very often, or at all.
for instance, i practice 2 forms on a regular basis. xiaohongquan, dahongquan. this takes up very, very little of my time though. i use these forms for warm ups before i weight train, or before I run. it gets my heart rate up, gets my body a good warm up after my stretching, and also doubles as practice of the format. when i spend my time on my heavy bag, i practice certain techniques from the forms, but not all of them. some i dont like.
golden arhat
sounds like a way of ensuring the stupid stay
quite the opposite… the “stupid” as you called them thought they were owed something and when they didnt get it… they left.
anyone with any sense would’nt stick doing that for a year, you need bang for buck
no offence… but this is just a ridiculous statement…you are speaking as an american with an american attitude… this is not foriegn mentality and you cannot understand foriegn mentailty.. its very different then the get it now instant lives we lead in America
people dont have time to just spend a few years doing forms and horse stance
maybe you dont but many do. this is a sweeping assumtion comming from your train of thought, but I can assure you I waited 5 years before my teacher accepted me… others have told me they wouldnt wait a month.. depends on how bad you want it…
and if you havent spent at least a few years in anything especially horse stance how good is your foundation??? my sifus legs were like tree trunks…
this is the problem with so many people now a days that call themselves MA they spend a few months learning some kicks, and punches and all of the sudden thier a bad ass…
what happens if you get attacked within that progression period?
the same thing that happens before you learn MA you get beat up.. there is no time line here to refer to but if you are in such a rush to how many classes does it take to not be beat up?
… what if your 10 years old? you get a fat lip and a black eye. we are not talking about life and death grudge matches
golden hails from the uk i believe. i attribute this mentality to be pretty common among westerners. not all inclusive of course.
this same method was used in the knights of old in europe.
its called being a squire. you cannot hold a blade until you are allowed to. often taking years.