The Way Kung Fu Was Trained in Prior Centuries

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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21

When I was 11 years old, one of my CMA teachers taught me an open hand form and a staff form. One day I asked him how to use my form in fighting, he said, “After you have trained ‘1 step 3 punches’ for 3 years and I’ll teach you how to fight after that.” I believe if you want to be a fighter, the training path is completely different.

I have learned more than 30 forms in my life but I no longer train any of them. It’s very hard to be a “fighter in the ring” and a “performer on the stage” at the same time.

22

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;909562]golden arhat

sounds like a way of ensuring the stupid stay

quite the opposite… the “stupid” as you called them thought they were owed something and when they didnt get it… they left.

anyone with any sense would’nt stick doing that for a year, you need bang for buck

no offence… but this is just a ridiculous statement…you are speaking as an american with an american attitude… this is not foriegn mentality and you cannot understand foriegn mentailty.. its very different then the get it now instant lives we lead in America

people dont have time to just spend a few years doing forms and horse stance

maybe you dont but many do. this is a sweeping assumtion comming from your train of thought, but I can assure you I waited 5 years before my teacher accepted me… others have told me they wouldnt wait a month.. depends on how bad you want it…
and if you havent spent at least a few years in anything especially horse stance how good is your foundation??? my sifus legs were like tree trunks…
this is the problem with so many people now a days that call themselves MA they spend a few months learning some kicks, and punches and all of the sudden thier a bad ass…

what happens if you get attacked within that progression period?

the same thing that happens before you learn MA you get beat up.. there is no time line here to refer to but if you are in such a rush to how many classes does it take to not be beat up?
… what if your 10 years old? you get a fat lip and a black eye. we are not talking about life and death grudge matches[/QUOTE]

if i’m paying for something, i want results, if thats a feeble western mentality then i dont care
just because something is eastern doesnt make it more vaulable

i didnt spend a few months doing this or that, i’ve been doing MA most of my life
i’ve learnt in a conscise way learning applications, forms, weapons from good teacehrs and bad teachers from books and dfrom friends, from videos and sparring partners

just because i didnt sit around developing my foundation before i was priveleged enough to learn the secrets

sounds like BS to me, at my gym that i’ve been going to for 3 years now
we’re all friends
and my teacher isnt my “master” he’s my friend
so is everyone else there and we learn from each other and do martial arts
and i’ve never seen my teacher lose to anyone aor seen anyone better to him that isnt competing at the national level (he’s no fedor ahaha)

i’m not waiting around to be privelged enough to learn the “real” stuff

its like ip man said “there are no secrets, just correct principles and understanding”

we do horse stance where i train but its silly to expect anyone to wait around for instruction liek that
there are better ways of weeding out those who arent dedicated
and thats just THROUGH TRAINING if you arent dedicated then you wont continue, but they’l still help you pay your rent

simple :slight_smile:

23

[QUOTE=Lucas;909567]golden hails from the uk i believe. i attribute this mentality to be pretty common among westerners. not all inclusive of course.

this same method was used in the knights of old in europe.

its called being a squire. you cannot hold a blade until you are allowed to. often taking years.[/QUOTE]

that was different, if you were a squire you were from a noble family also, you’d be sent to live with your older cousins etc

help him prepare armour
train with weapons
learn how to put on your relatives armour correctly
and act as a sparring partner also

and had no bearing on weither or not you were dedicated or not
you were a knight and you trained to be a knight and a weapon of war and had and it had everything to do with who your related to. aside from the fact that people didnt live that long circa 15-1600 60’s at best so you didnt have time to wait about

24

To start with I would get severly bored really quick if I were paying money to be told to sit in a horse for two years. Also, I’m simply not dedicated enough to do a program that requires something like that…Sorry about that but I have other interest and MA is just one of them.

Also, I think the stories of people sitting in Horse stance, hitting water, so on and so forth for five years before they do any real training is far overblown.

I can see kids going to play football and the coach saying, “Glad to have everyone here…All you are going to do for the first year is to get down in a three point stance.”

And I’ve heard that is a “western” Philosophy…BS If you opened a school in China (without any resrictions) and told parents “Well for the first five years of the program your child would only do Horse stance” I bet you would get the same reaction as you would here.

25

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;909562]golden arhat

sounds like a way of ensuring the stupid stay

quite the opposite… the “stupid” as you called them thought they were owed something and when they didnt get it… they left.

anyone with any sense would’nt stick doing that for a year, you need bang for buck

no offence… but this is just a ridiculous statement…you are speaking as an american with an american attitude… this is not foriegn mentality and you cannot understand foriegn mentailty.. its very different then the get it now instant lives we lead in America

people dont have time to just spend a few years doing forms and horse stance

maybe you dont but many do. this is a sweeping assumtion comming from your train of thought, but I can assure you I waited 5 years before my teacher accepted me… others have told me they wouldnt wait a month.. depends on how bad you want it…
and if you havent spent at least a few years in anything especially horse stance how good is your foundation??? my sifus legs were like tree trunks…
this is the problem with so many people now a days that call themselves MA they spend a few months learning some kicks, and punches and all of the sudden thier a bad ass…

what happens if you get attacked within that progression period?

the same thing that happens before you learn MA you get beat up.. there is no time line here to refer to but if you are in such a rush to how many classes does it take to not be beat up?
… what if your 10 years old? you get a fat lip and a black eye. we are not talking about life and death grudge matches[/QUOTE]

Very well put.:slight_smile:

I remember the first months of training in Siu Lam Wing Chun. Sifu put me through a lot of hard training including horse stance (Shaolin not Wing Chun). On one level he was building up my roots and foundations and on the other level he was testing my dedication and consistancy.

Knowing the “kickboxing” approach to kung fu training that is so prevalent today it is easy to see how the foundation training is overlooked, after all many so called “kung fu” fighters fight without kung fu roots, “hopping” around like boxers and TKD-ists.

The “make a fast buck” from kickboxing, sorry “kung fu” experts or “sifus” use many irrelevant modern approaches just to ensure that those students with the shorter attention spans stick around a little longer.

Lastly, most so called kung fu “sifus” would not recognize traditional training nor understand its significance even if it fell on them.

26

Movies don’t count

I know someone who was taught the old way.

His Sifu was born in the 1918, trained under Chang Lai Cheun, born 1880.

When he was accepted as a student he moved in with SiGung.

He lived and trained with him everyday, several hours, for nearly 5 years. Working for him at the same time.

First they learned all the forms, from stance, to simple forms, to complex forms. After a certain point, they began to use form elements as fighting combinations in training.
After that they went to work in the ‘security’ business. A little bare knuckle prize fighting on the side.

All this talk about stance for the first year, etc, is not the old way, that’s hybrid.

The old way was live in, work for your training, then put your training to work.

At least, in this one situation, under this one sifu, in this one style in Maoist China where Kung Fu was a forbidden old way.

27

[QUOTE=Ray Pina;909551]Forms were added to dilute martial arts. To change the focus from fighting to displays of athleticism. It was intentional and it worked.[/QUOTE]

Forms are a valuable teaching tool. They are also an encyclopedia of a given style. On another level they can also help internal training eg. the White Crane Sam Chien form.

28

[QUOTE=golden arhat;909591]that was different, if you were a squire you were from a noble family also, you’d be sent to live with your older cousins etc

help him prepare armour
train with weapons
learn how to put on your relatives armour correctly
and act as a sparring partner also

and had no bearing on weither or not you were dedicated or not
you were a knight and you trained to be a knight and a weapon of war and had and it had everything to do with who your related to. aside from the fact that people didnt live that long circa 15-1600 60’s at best so you didnt have time to wait about[/QUOTE]

very true. though this is simply to point out that cultures, in the past, have often had traditional methods by which they would induct people into the warrior caste.

as a child, rarely, if ever, will you see them fighting. ususally this long period of ‘prooving yourself’ was done when y9ou were a child.

as an adult this would often be done through actual fighting. you proove that you are dedicated by showing that you can fight. thos skills would have been aquired through dedicated practice and training.

29

[QUOTE=Yum Cha;909596]I know someone who was taught the old way.

His Sifu was born in the 1918, trained under Chang Lai Cheun, born 1880.

When he was accepted as a student he moved in with SiGung.

He lived and trained with him everyday, several hours, for nearly 5 years. Working for him at the same time.

First they learned all the forms, from stance, to simple forms, to complex forms. After a certain point, they began to use form elements as fighting combinations in training.
After that they went to work in the ‘security’ business. A little bare knuckle prize fighting on the side.

All this talk about stance for the first year, etc, is not the old way, that’s hybrid.

The old way was live in, work for your training, then put your training to work.

At least, in this one situation, under this one sifu, in this one style in Maoist China where Kung Fu was a forbidden old way.[/QUOTE]

this is very similar to the traditional young squire. you are family, and you work and learn the family trade. which happens to be fighting.

30

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;909595]

Lastly, most so called kung fu “sifus” would not recognize traditional training nor understand its significance even if it fell on them.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, almost no one knows as much as you and your two years of training… :rolleyes:

31

The story of nine tatoo dragon Shi Jing says he finished learning the entire Six Harmony style from his sifu in one year. sixy harmony still exist today

it should take no time at all in kung fu to learn all the stuff. the way people are teaching it today makes it hard, like making you imitate complicated unexplained movements.

about stories of sifus making people do horse stance for five years, thats a myth
no one does NOTHING but horse stance for 5 years

32

golden arhat,

if i’m paying for something, i want results, if thats a feeble western mentality then i dont care
just because something is eastern doesnt make it more vaulable

this thread is named training in prior centuries, peasants, poor people, famers etc etc. there is nothing about paying for teaching. never said it was more valuable because its eastern.


i didnt spend a few months doing this or that, i’ve been doing MA most of my life
i’ve learnt in a conscise way learning applications, forms, weapons from good teacehrs and bad teachers from books and dfrom friends, from videos and sparring partners

please undestand I was not speaking about you specifically and i am glad you have time under your belt. I am just trying to answer in terms of the question for the topic of the this thread..

just because i didnt sit around developing my foundation before i was priveleged enough to learn the secrets

allow me to ask you … would your foundation be stronger if you put more time into it???

sounds like BS to me, at my gym that i’ve been going to for 3 years now
we’re all friends
and my teacher isnt my “master” he’s my friend
so is everyone else there and we learn from each other and do martial arts
and i’ve never seen my teacher lose to anyone aor seen anyone better to him that isnt competing at the national level (he’s no fedor ahaha)

Im happy you get along with your kung fu brothers, the word master is over rated and almost extinct, but again we are talking about something say 300 years ago… times have changed since then havent they?

i’m not waiting around to be privelged enough to learn the “real” stuff

others might… depends on how good you wish to be.. I know students that put in 2 years and feel they learned enough… I have 4 students with 10 plus years and still wanting to learn more…

we do horse stance where i train but its silly to expect anyone to wait around for instruction liek that
there are better ways of weeding out those who arent dedicated
and thats just THROUGH TRAINING if you arent dedicated then you wont continue, but they’l still help you pay your rent

depends on the person. bodhidharma (damo) waited in a cave for 9 years to find a diciple worthy enough to teach Buddhism too… would you wait for even a month? nowe you see the difference between men… be well…

33

The old way was live in, work for your training, then put your training to work.

In all honesty, this is the way it is now with both professional fighters and professional soldiers. :stuck_out_tongue:

34

[QUOTE=Lucas;909557]i disagree. i believe that modernly this is the case. but there are some very old forms. shaolin for example[/QUOTE]

The Chinese government began to hold contests favoring form over fighting a long time ago. It is not a new creation. And it was done with an intention in mind.

The idea of Shoalin Monks doing forms atop pagodas (which are sacred tombs) sell movies and magazines. They wouldn’t prepare you to defend yourself or loved ones from the very serious threat of murder and rape… as is evident from the result of today’s form work.

Mission accomplished: A large population of non-warriors.

35

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;909613]In all honesty, this is the way it is now with both professional fighters and professional soldiers. :p[/QUOTE]

Exactly…

36

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;909611]

allow me to ask you … would your foundation be stronger if you put more time into it???

[/QUOTE]

definitley of course it would be i agree

i see what your driving at, i’m just pointing out that its not practical

37

arhat,
its OK brother…many times I agree to disagree.. everyone on the board sooner or later has valid points.. well most.. LOL
but you must realize that training and thinking 300 years ago is not like today…hell 50 years ago is nothing like it is today… so you cant say that you wouldnt spend the time waiting or that you feel the teacher is obligated to teach you just becuse you have been waiting around for say 3 months???

thats the point I was trying to get across.. you keep saying that its ridiculous to wait to be taught and you need to get bang for your buck but most teachers did not recieve monetary payment so if you swept, washed, cooked etc etc for your teacher are you supposed to be taught quicker? this is justgesture of appreciation for even considering you…

38

Another aspect of kung fu training is the teaching of weapons. I can’t believe that students trained in empty hand drills & forms for years on end without learning practical weapons training for fighting not just forms.
What use is standing in horse stance & punching air for months on end if the kung fu school gets stormed by a rival school.

39

rival schools??? not sure what you mean by this as most MA schools were religious sanctuaries.. we are not talking about training the mancu’s or military.

Also many kung fu systems have no weapons ..and most japanese weapons were farming tools so not sure if you are implying they needed to learn weapons to fight off temples down the street or what?

how many weapons do you think were bought, owned, shared and sold in a peasant village with no money? from what my sifu tells me most teachers were poor and illiterate.. they had money for food if they were lucky, not shopping at the silversmiths

40

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;909668]rival schools??? not sure what you mean by this as most MA schools were religious sanctuaries.. we are not talking about training the mancu’s or military.[/QUOTE]
Its a myth that MA schools were religious sanctuaries even in china you cant use the excuse that MA was exclusively Shaolin or Wudang there were plenty of MA schools & teachers outside the temples.
Martial artists were worldly fighters not monks or priests. Usually ex-military returned to civilian life or taught by said ex-military returned to civilian life. It was military men who took MA into the templs.

Also many kung fu systems have no weapons ..and most japanese weapons were farming tools so not sure if you are implying they needed to learn weapons to fight off temples down the street or what?

The katana, nodachi & yari are not farm implements

how many weapons do you think were bought, owned, shared and sold in a peasant village with no money? from what my sifu tells me most teachers were poor and illiterate.. they had money for food if they were lucky, not shopping at the silversmiths

Wear did I say they couldnt afford to buy weapons. Practical weapons training is practical weapons training no matter what weapon is being used whether you are using a sword, staff spear or farmers hoe.
Most sifus may have been poor and illiterate, how ever the exceptional ones usually had the patronage of a rich family/persons or an organization to fund them.