When it comes to information of this kind, Sisuk Howard Choy is of course your best bet. He is very close to the sources of Choy Lee Fut.
Good question about the Bear (Hung). I once learned a form called Hung Ying Ba Kwa. But that’s different, it’s Ba Kwa, doesn’t count as far as the 10 animals are concerned..
All animals have their own forms, and there are many forms for two animals. One of the most famous ones of these is the Fu Ying Pau (Pow, as you like to spell it…;)) Ying Kuen (sp?).
I think the characteristics of all these animals were discussed at clfma.com at some point last year. Since the board is not as busy as this one, you can probably find the info quickly.
While I agree that Howard Choy is a great source his information conflicts with what I’ve been told by my Sifu.
I’m just wondering where this discrepancy comes from.
In addition I talked to my good kung fu friend who is fluent in both Cantonese and Mandarin and he said that he had no knowledge of any word for “deer” that sounds even remotely close to “Dil.”
I asked my wife for the chinese word for deer and she said it was “lok”. The only animal that sounds like “dil” or “dew” is eagle.
The one thing I always found strange is that there is tiger, panther and lion. In actuality they all are cats and fight in a similar manner, of course size and speed vary. I can’t imagine a lion being much different than a tiger and if in fact the lion form has alot of grappling it doesn’t make sense since cats don’t use joint locks.
I think that the lion techniques represent the tearing action of the jaws. That would be cool if the form had grappling techniques. I wounder who out there that trains choy lay fut know this form and from what lineage it comes from?
Oh yea! Fu Pow, I was told that the deer was one of the ten animals and that there is no bear in choy lay fut. There is a bear ba gwa form but that does not relate to one of the ten animals.
Fu-Pow, I wrote this in my earlier post but deleted it because I didn’t want to take the chance of sounding like I am trying to stir up something. Since you are a smart guy and surely understand why I would say this, I will say it.
When it comes to any information about Choy Lee Fut, Sydney HSG is always the most reliable source. There is nothing outside the family the family does not know. All the original scrolls are safely guarded by the Grandmaster (they are in a secret location and I am sure there are copies in other secret locations). The scrolls are updated by each generation - Choy Lee Fut is an evolving art - and all pertinent information is included in them. Something as basic as the tenth animal can be trusted at face value coming from the Sydney HSG. Now, it could be a matter of translation and such, but since Sisuk Howard Choy said it is a deer-like animal, I guess we will have to go along with that until we learn to understand Cantonese
Big cats fight in a very different manner from one another, and I mean they fight very differently from each other in nature. Of course, very is a subjective word, but different is different. Now, when you add human imagination to the mix, you definitely have differences.
The tiger is more straight-forward and very powerful whereas the panther is more agile attacking with a barrade of punches and kicks. If you look at how tigers fight in the wild, you will see a lot of bipedal attacks. Panthers roll more like our domestic cats. I find them very different from one another, but that’s just my take on it
Okay, I will sms my friend about the Chin Na Kuen today and will post the answer here. He, by the way, learned it from the Grandmaster (Chan Yong-Fa), so that would be the lineage in this case.
The missing animal is eagle. In the Chan Hung Sing lineage there are forms for all ten, as well as tiger and dragon (combined), and snake and crane (combined), 5 and 10 animal forms and animal Vs animal 2 man sets.
Originally posted by Fu-Pow While I agree that Howard Choy is a great source his information conflicts with what I’ve been told by my Sifu.
I read the part in clfma forum where you signed yourself on as LiLoong; take it from me, Sifu Choy was having fun with you! In future, if you want to get some good information for free, be a little bit more humble, especially when you are talking to the experts in their turf.
Since you are so keen to find out, I will give you a hint, the Chinese character for this animal is written with a “gum” (gold) radical to the left, a “lok” (deer) radical above 4 dots to the right. In Madarin it is pronounced “biao” and in Cantonese, it depends what dialect you are speaking, remember Chan Heung spoke the Sunwun dialect.
Now that should keep you busy doing some research.
The character you refer to means: bit, bridle or ride. It’s like a horse bit that you put in an animals mouth. Hence, the radicals for metal, and deer/horse. It’s not an actual animal that I can determine. Are you sure this is the correct character?
Originally posted by Ben Gash The missing animal is eagle. In the Chan Hung Sing lineage there are forms for all ten, as well as tiger and dragon (combined), and snake and crane (combined), 5 and 10 animal forms and animal Vs animal 2 man sets.
Actually, I’ve never heard of a Chan Hung Sing eagle form. It might have been adopted into lineages from the Yow Jing Kuen.
Originally posted by CLFNole
[B]I asked my wife for the chinese word for deer and she said it was “lok”. The only animal that sounds like “dil” or “dew” is eagle.
The one thing I always found strange is that there is tiger, panther and lion. In actuality they all are cats and fight in a similar manner, of course size and speed vary. I can’t imagine a lion being much different than a tiger and if in fact the lion form has alot of grappling it doesn’t make sense since cats don’t use joint locks.
Peace [/B]
Good point…I think the confusion is that people actually believe that the animal forms were created by watching animals. If you watched a panther, lion and tiger fight the techs would pretty much end up all looking the same. Because they are all big cats and they all catch their prey and fight pretty much the same way.
The more plausible theory is that the techniques existed first and were later attributed to or categorized as having the qualities of animals to fit in with philosophical ideals.
I’m really curious about the 5 other animals because they may embody aspects of CLF that I’m not familiar with.
For example, CLF Nole, in our lineage, techs/forms that embody the Tiger, Panther, Crane and Elephant are fairly obvious and predominant.
The techs/forms that embody the Snake and Dragon are less prevalent.
The Lion, Monkey, Horse and “Biao” (whatever the f it is) are totally missing or unidentifiable. They may be ways of expanding your adaptability and range as a fighter.
Actually if you are familiar with the long poetic names of each movement such as “tiger exits cave”, etc… A lot of rather simple looking movements represent dragon or I should say have dragon in the poetic name. Some uppercuts and other techniques I can’t remember because I am not into the poetic stuff.
Snake also but to a lesser extent. The other stuff is much easier to see like Tiger Claw, Panther Fist and certain movements that are Crane like. I do see your point though.
Truthfully it doesn’t matter too much because there are only so many ways one can kick and punch. Someone could see a move as one animal while another could see a different animal with both being plausible.
To me CLF’s basis is in the 10 seeds and come more or less from Shaolin teachings, the Baat Kwa sets add a Taoist influence to CLF and the animal sets bring in the teachings of Bak Yuk Fung. Although he might also be considered sil-lum.
…minus the gold radical which changes the meaning of the character considerably :rolleyes:
Biu in Cantonese. Pao/Biao in Mandarin.
Anways, the character means…
“a species of roe”
At first I thought this meant “roe” as in fish eggs and that’s what threw me off. But then I realized it meant "roe"as in:
Main Entry: roe deer
Function: noun
: either of two small European or Asian deer (Capreolus capreolus and C. pygarus) that have erect cylindrical antlers forked at the summit, are reddish brown in summer and grayish in winter, have a white rump patch, and are noted for their nimbleness and grace
The dots under the deer radical most likely indicate water and this is the probably the habitat that this deer likes most. Incidentally it inhabits most of China.
If it is indeed the “archaic” form for deer then the dots under the radical were probably dropped when the radical started being used more generically in other radicals. Speculation.
The animal was probably included in CLF because it is noted for it’s nimble movements and grace. Not sure what a “Deer” Handset would look like though.
Here’s a picture of the cute little guy if you’re interested…
The character you refer to means: bit, bridle or ride. It’s like a horse bit that you put in an animals mouth. Hence, the radicals for metal, and deer/horse. It’s not an actual animal that I can determine. Are you sure this is the correct character? [/B]
Good research, well done.
The Biu in Biu Ying Kuen is definitely written with a metal radical next to the deer radical. It does mean a bit (of a bridle) but in its archaic meaning the metal radical was used to denote the fighting nature of a deer on fire (the four dotes).
Picture a horseman charging towards his enemy, the bridle (the biu) attached to his horse would flickered like a golden deer darting in the sun. It represented a deer in war with its metal shinning.
The sound biu also rerpresent a “dart” and “charging forward”, although they are written differently.
As the sound of the name implied, Biu Ying Kuen is made up of biu ma (charging horse), biu ji (charging fingers) and biu jin (charging arrow-palms) techniques, sometimes in singular and sometimes in lin wun (continuous) combinations and it also has deer like kicks.
Sifu Choy used the Sunwun dialect for biu and had some fun with you. As for your Sifu thinking it was a wolf-like animal, you have to ask him why, may be he is doing a Sifu Choy on you as well!
A deer would make sense as other southern ten animals systems have the deer in this place. My resources don’t show a deer form though. Do you know it XJ?
As for the origin of the eagle form? I don’t know. I’ve seen eagle in Hung Men and Lung Ying as well.
Originally posted by Ben Gash A deer would make sense as other southern ten animals systems have the deer in this place. My resources don’t show a deer form though. Do you know it XJ?
No, I don’t need to know it, all animals move the same, it doesn’t matter too much because there are only so many ways one can kick and punch. Someone could see a move as one animal while another could see a different animal with both being plausible, why bother?
The Biu in Biu Ying Kuen is definitely written with a metal radical next to the deer radical. It does mean a bit (of a bridle) but in its archaic meaning the metal radical was used to denote the fighting nature of a deer on fire (the four dotes).
FP: That sounds very bizarre. The fighting nature of a deer on fire?
Picture a horseman charging towards his enemy, the bridle (the biu) attached to his horse would flickered like a golden deer darting in the sun. It represented a deer in war with its metal shinning.
FP: Ok that was my next question…that is…how did they get the meaning of horse bit from “golden deer on fire”?
The sound biu also rerpresent a “dart” and “charging forward”, although they are written differently.
As the sound of the name implied, Biu Ying Kuen is made up of biu ma (charging horse), biu ji (charging fingers) and biu jin (charging arrow-palms) techniques, sometimes in singular and sometimes in lin wun (continuous) combinations and it also has deer like kicks.
FP: Hmmm…very interesting. So they are using Biu (as in deer) as a h0mphone for Biu (as in “thrust”). Those clever old Chinese guys, what will they suprise us with next?
Your sarcasm never ceases to amaze me. That wasn’t my point, just that ones CLF life isn’t over if you never learn all the animal sets. I know all CLF sets have a main point to them but with so many thats a lot of points or more likely a lot of repeated points.
But then again you usually emerge from your cave to stir things up. Besides you didn’t quote me so I should charge you for the plagarism. Come on give me some props, huh!
The Biu in Biu Ying Kuen is definitely written with a metal radical next to the deer radical. It does mean a bit (of a bridle) but in its archaic meaning the metal radical was used to denote the fighting nature of a deer on fire (the four dotes).
FP: That sounds very bizarre. The fighting nature of a deer on fire?
JX: Fire refers to the Fire element, whose nature is penetrating and destructive. The archaic character made of a deer radical above a gold radical actually means fighting.
FP: Hmmm…very interesting. So they are using Biu (as in deer) as a h0mphone for Biu (as in “thrust”). Those clever old Chinese guys, what will they suprise us with next?
