By the way, the latest movie The legend is born, angered the families of yiu choi and yuen kay san, because they were shown to be defeated by the japanese yet ip man was able to hold his own. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRLJ50q4vZI The families said they
will consider legal action if the movie producers do not hold a press conference or make good the name of their ancestors.
LOL, That’s a pretty pathetic basis for a lawsuit. If you can sue someone who portrays your ancestor as a loser in a work of fiction only loosely based on fact, IMO the legislators need to be whacked firmly about the head.
Maybe they should sue the producers of Ip Man for making him look better than YC and YKS.
IMO such legal action makes their ancestors look even worse, as the manifest evidence is that the ancestors’ offspring turned out to be idiots.
[QUOTE=anerlich;1028057]LOL, That’s a pretty pathetic basis for a lawsuit. If you can sue someone who portrays your ancestor as a loser in a work of fiction only loosely based on fact, IMO the legislators need to be whacked firmly about the head.
Maybe they should sue the producers of Ip Man for making him look better than YC and YKS.
IMO such legal action makes their ancestors look even worse, as the manifest evidence is that the ancestors’ offspring turned out to be idiots.[/QUOTE]
The Chinese “loss of face” is the issue here - they always need their “ancestors” to be great and invincible, rather than portrayed as normal people. Its too much at times.
[QUOTE=hunt1;1027984]Personally of all the stories I have heard the one I heard from Moy Yat I think maybe closest to the truth if only because it fits all the observable facts is a nice simple manner.
It wasn’t Leung Bik but Fung Wah and he had gone with Yip to vist him. LB was used for marketing since few would have heard of Fung Wah or known he was Leung Jans student and Yip was in need of money. They met after Yip fled to Hk in 49.
This story would explain much. Why the WC he taught in Fushan and HK were different. Why in HK his WC changed from what he taught his first students which was very close to his Fushan WC. Yip did tell several students about Fung Wahs skill and seeing him break dummy arms. It also explains both the LB story being made up and still learning different methods from another student of Leung Jan
Of course one might think it is to neat a package.[/QUOTE]
If you look at Leung Sheung’s WCK - it is so close to Yuen Kay Shan’s. A few minor differences, a little tightening of movements, reversing the Huen Sao to inward (a Yip Man signature), but otherwise 90% the same . So is it really that much of a change? I think the Cheung Bo WCK has quite a few clips (the guy was Sum Nung’s student before…) on youtube, and you can see the closeness with that and HK Yip Man WCK in the early stages.
The references I have from goverment to the wingchun families in china, are not related to Ip Man Lineage in blood, neither do they owe Ip Man to mention Leung Bik. They are telling you the evidence as they know it.
Its interesting despite all the physical evidence, we are still speculating.
I heard also a story about the family of Fung, Fung Zhu going to look for Ip man and he ended up exchanging with Ip Ching. Again another story.
Done my part here. Leung Bik is a closed revelation as far as I am concerned.
Will come and give more evidence on other sections of Ip Man lineage when I do more research in china from china.
Shadow I enjoy your posts,keep up the good work. I enjoy the different stories. I am most interested in Non Ip Man stuff only because I think Ip Man stuff has been out there so long.
Robert not sure if I wasn’t clear in my previous post or I misread yours but your post was exactly the point I was trying to make. If Moy Yat was correct and Yip stated learning from /training with Fung Wah in 49/50 then it makes perfect sense that he would teach his first students the wing chun he was most comfortable with and then teach or integrate the newer material latter on as he became more comfortable with it hence the change in his teachings over time.
No different I am sure than if you were teaching in 89/90 your material was different than what you taught later on after you had time to assimilate Hawkins wing chun.
[QUOTE=hunt1;1028677]
Robert not sure if I wasn’t clear in my previous post or I misread yours but your post was exactly the point I was trying to make. If Moy Yat was correct and Yip stated learning from /training with Fung Wah in 49/50 then it makes perfect sense that he would teach his first students the wing chun he was most comfortable with and then teach or integrate the newer material latter on as he became more comfortable with it hence the change in his teachings over time.
No different I am sure than if you were teaching in 89/90 your material was different than what you taught later on after you had time to assimilate Hawkins wing chun.[/QUOTE]
Hunt,
You may be correct…not much more is known about Fung Wah. Perhaps Fung Wah had this influence. As I learn about history, we have no definites, only speculation, and although we try to choose the most logical stream of events, perhaps another course can be true.
We should always think there is “noise” in the communication, that we don’t know for sure, forgot or overlooked details, were insufficient to understand at the time, or are mistaken. In this way, we can only speculate, and consider and weigh possibilities.
Weng Chun has said that Dai Duk Lan had an influence on Yip Man as well, as well as a possibility that Chu Chung Man was a distant relative of Yip Man. Who knows? Certainly we know Yip Man “borrowed” their Jong design. Perhaps Yip Man put together Baat Jaam Dao himself with external influences and classical references. We know consistently the Yuen Kay Shan pole and Yip Man pole share great similarity as do the 3 hand sets, but the Jong and Yee Ji Dao (knives) differs greatly in juxtaposition and content.
Yes, you are correct - what I taught in the 80’s and 90’s is different from what I teach today, and have been teaching since 2000…
Part of an interview by Ip Ching from Moy Yat about Ip Man in Fatshan
The Ving Tsun was teached to the “Young Lords” of FatSan by Chan Wah Shun, and between those young ones, there was the most famous 'till today: IP MAN
“My grandpa managed the Ip Family finances. We owned restaurants, funeral houses and the famous Song Garden where the food for silk worms grow. The Song Garden was very huge and the goverment needed to make a road in the same place. So, after my grandpa dies the road was called Fuk Yin. This road is very near to Chopstick street, where Leung Jaan lived.” - said Ip Ching to Moy Yat.
Very informative thread. For those who have an interest in, or practice Wing Chun, or even incorporate these techniques or forms into their own studies, I thank you for the insight into the life and teachings of Yip Man and his lineage.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1028067]If you look at Leung Sheung’s WCK - it is so close to Yuen Kay Shan’s. A few minor differences, a little tightening of movements, reversing the Huen Sao to inward (a Yip Man signature), but otherwise 90% the same . So is it really that much of a change? I think the Cheung Bo WCK has quite a few clips (the guy was Sum Nung’s student before…) on youtube, and you can see the closeness with that and HK Yip Man WCK in the early stages.[/QUOTE]
even though things look similar, these differences can be important. for example the small differences in sil lim tao changes the meaning of what the movement represents. also the energy and intention behind the movements can be completely different, look at how sum dek performs siu lim tao on youtube vs other people.
Chan Yu Min Wing Chun Lineage
Unlike most Wing Chun Lineages, which specialize in close range combat, this particular line places equal emphasis on training for both long-range and close-range fighting, while stressing in techniques in attaching and defending the lower part of the body, thereby enabling the practitioner to handle multi-opponent combat situations.
Introduction to the Lineage:
Sifu Leung Hing HoiThe Lineage head, Chan Yu Min () was the son of Chan Wah Shun (). He is the teacher of the renowned Grandmaster, Yip Man, who is the very teacher of Bruce Lee of international fame. Chan Yu Min taught to his 3 sons, Chan Kar Chai (), Chan Kar Lim () and Chan Kar Sun(). All three of them were dead. Our TRAINING MASTER, Sifu Leung Hing Hoi (Uncle Hoi), aged 60, is the Kung Fu descendent of Chan Kar Sun.
Curriculum
Bare Hand Forms
Siu Nian (Little Practice) - A form composing of WingChun basic strokes and combat techniques for beginners, which is a superset of the currently widely practiced Siu Lim Tau (Little Idea).
Sae Mun (Four Gates) - A form made up of strokes and footwork specifically designed to allow the practitioner to address opponents coming from 4 directions. This form is included in the Siu Nian (Little Practice), but is ideal for students who are familiar with the widely practiced Siu Lim Tau (Little Idea), but wish to enhance the Siu Lim Tau with techniques in footworks, moves and strokes so as to address opponents coming from 4 directions.
Hung Sha Sao (Red Sand Palm) - A unique set of techniques designed to attack and defend the lower part of the body in combat.
Chum Kiu (Seeking Bridge) - Training on close range combat techniques.
Biu Jee (Thrusting Finger) : Close range and 3 directions combat techniques
Fut Jeung (Buddha Palm) - A specialized form for training internal strength and palm techniques.
Fook Fu (Subduing Tiger) - Training in long range combat techniques.
Fa Kuen (Flower Fist) - Training in technique to extending the body and stance for fighting in multiple opponent situations.
Weaponry Forms
Long Bench Form - using the traditional Chinese long bench stool as the Weapon.
Spear Form Double-headed Pole Form
Single Sword Form
Double Knives Form
Luk Dim Boon Gwun (Six and a half point Pole Form)
Dummy Form
Wooden Dummy Form
Drills
Pien Sun Kuen (, Slanting Body Punch)
Lai Jin Kuen (, Stretching Arrow Punch)
Huen Sao (Circle Hand)
Chi Sao (Sticky Hand)
More appropriate to post videos on Chan Wah Shun lineage here…
I was talking about Shunde Wengchun( ) and the Sets and the book was talking about, the forms
And this 3 forms are found in Shunde Wengchun/Chan Yiu Ming Lineage
The above curriculum is remarkably long like Pao Fa Lien and what the Cho family taught. It contains WCK, but I think many Weng Chun elements are Opera Fist elements and not necessarily what we are referring as WCK.
WCK is the essence of the essence. I do see perhaps Leung Jan’s Gu Lao/Ku Lou is a simplification of these elements and concentrates on the application, rather than sets.
If I retired and only a few years to live, I’d probably only teach a core of essentials and forget about leaving behind all the forms.
I am glad in Shunde, this is preserved, but more as a time capsule. Modern WCK has still evolved and continues on in the modern world.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1036460]The above curriculum is remarkably long like Pao Fa Lien and what the Cho family taught. It contains WCK, but I think many Weng Chun elements are Opera Fist elements and not necessarily what we are referring as WCK.
WCK is the essence of the essence. I do see perhaps Leung Jan’s Gu Lao/Ku Lou is a simplification of these elements and concentrates on the application, rather than sets.
If I retired and only a few years to live, I’d probably only teach a core of essentials and forget about leaving behind all the forms.
I am glad in Shunde, this is preserved, but more as a time capsule. Modern WCK has still evolved and continues on in the modern world.[/QUOTE]
Yes Sifu Robert, alot of the WengChun fist footage looks so much like Shaolin Tao, Sui Da, Fa Kuen. The similarities are uncanny…
Wondering if they had any exchanges in Guangzhou, Fatshan or Shunde.
The fact is that we really interprete the fist as individuals, and then pass it down as our understanding. Whatever the people who learn it do with it, try to do exactly or improve it, depends on the unique ability of the person. Thanks for your input.
[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;910009] . . . . .Here I present from China, what is said about him from the legendary 90yrs old Sifu Gwok Fu. In this video, he talks about Master Yip Man, Master Yuen Kay San, Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung, Bruce Lee’s father, Dim Mak etc…
In the written piece accompanying the video, it is written he mentions Leung Bik
