clam 61
not praising. making light of the situation.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the explanation. I have no problem.
joy chaudhuri
Just wanted to share something that makes all this who and who, who is better than who stories seem so small
Personal cultivation, that is the hard part.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090226/img/pwl-the-feet-of-monk-hua-ch-6935a70e49a8.html
Ageing monk’s devotion leaves deep mark on temple
Dawn has yet to break over a small temple in a Tibetan region of western China, but monk Hua Chi is already finishing an arduous daily ritual that has left its mark on both the man and the shrine. Skip related content
Hua, also a doctor of traditional medicine who believes he is about 70 years old, has been performing a strict daily ritual at this temple in the monastery town of Tongren, in Qinghai province, for nearly 20 years.
He has knelt in prayer so many times that his footprints remain deeply, perfectly ingrained on the temple’s wooden floor.
Every day before sunrise, he arrives at the temple steps, places his feet in his footprints and bends down to pray a few thousand times before walking around the temple.
The footprints are three centimeters (1.2 inches) deep where the balls of his feet have pressed into the wood.
But the years are beginning to make their own mark on his body.
“During the first years I would pray 2,000 to 3,000 times a day. But I have grown older, so in recent years I have only done around 1,000 each day,” he said, adding sheepishly that he could sometimes only manage around 500 in the cold of winter.
The ritual started with no specific aim, but with time it has turned into a project of self-salvation, said Hua, who hopes his dedication will be noticed and guarantee his soul a smooth transition to the afterlife.
According to Tibetan Buddhism, following death, the spirit goes through a three-stage process which determines whether it enters nirvana or returns for rebirth in one of the six realms of existence – hell, human, animal, hungry ghost, demi-god or god.
Hua says he is getting closer to his goal.
“I reconstructed this temple and have prayed and walked around the temple all these times so that after my death my spirit will not suffer,” he said.
Hua’s devotion has not gone unnoticed by younger monks at the temple, which lies within the Rongwo Gonchen Gompa, Tongren’s main Tibetan monastery.
The monastery, which dates from 1301, is home to hundreds of youngsters studying Buddhist scriptures.
Twenty-nine-year-old Genden Darji says he spent many days admiring Hua’s efforts before finding the courage to step into his footprints.
As he carefully repeats Hua’s movements, the young monk says he plans to carry on the ritual when the older monk stops.
“Every day I come here and every day I look at the piece of wood, and it has inspired me to continue to make the footprints myself,” he said.
(Writing by Hanna Rantala; Editing by Ian Ransom and Miral Fahmy)
This peaceful and respecful story would be how I envisioned the meeting of Sum Nung and Yip Man to be, Junior to Senior, pretty much like how Rene described it to be.
[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;917543]You brought up a good example, if one did not understand or read cantonese one would ask these questions and perhaps misinterprete the story.
No, Master Gwok Fu said he was being taught by Master Yip Man, and Master Yuen was sitting right next to him. Apparently, this scene of Yip Man teaching, and Master Yuen being there was a common thing.
Next he said Master Yuen was ruthless and quick in his strikes when they played hands. I dont believe Master Yuen was out to do him in, maybe just test him. And he said, he was able to handle the exchange. It doesnt mean, he beat up Master Yuen. Or Master Yuen beat him down. He didnt say that. He also went on to say Master Yuen later told his peers that Gwok Fu was a skilled fighter.
We can exchange skills without doing the guy in right? In chinese martial arts, there is a saying, once you touch hands, the true kungfu will be reveal.
Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San, Yip Man were known as the 3 Heros(of wingchun) and famous in Guangdong. I personally believe they were great friends. And in those days where Wingchun was not a publicly taught system, and expensive to learn, 3 friends who had the honour to learn it, would exchange(Me thinks it was like a Turf Club, where the Elite hang out with their race horses)
All this comes from the video featured. I am not going to add any legend or stories to it. Like I said, I wasnt there, he lived it. And I respect all three of them. 
History is funny, according to what you wrote, Yiu Choi learnt from Yuen Chai Wan, and then taught Yip man. However in the chinese post from Mainland china, Yuen Kay San learnt from Ng Chun So’s chum kil and bil jee after Yip Man. So who is who, what is what? Hahahaha…no one knows and honestly none of it matters, in the big scheme of things, except to those that insist their version of the story is right. Really if Ip man was beaten up, so what? And if he lost one exchange(who knows his mental state), maybe he had a off day, does that mean he is not a great master, or will not be? See there’s where stories dont continue or dont teach.
In chinese we know as a warrior, winning and losing is common. What is important is what you do about it, after you have had a fall- to pick yourself up and better your skills. Thats really winning.
When I was training in army, they taught us, we can lose the battle, we cannot lose the war.[/QUOTE]
i wasnt attempting to make any ‘wrong or right’ posts, more just airing my thoughts - some of my questions would have contradicted each other had i have meant them in an ‘i’m right’ sense.
sorry for any confusion
the post you made initially is very thought provoking if you are interested in the history of wck, i have many more thoughts on it but none that require an answer, so i wont take up extra bandwidth!
all the best
No worries, just air your thoughts.
Like I said in another post, I was trying to present some material not known or unheard of in the western world. Its no secret, its just not translated, in english
In fact I had my thoughts about the interview, and was intially shocked, because he listed Bruce Lee’s father was a robber, kidnapper and Wong Shun Leung and William Cheung tried to blackmail Yip Man into teaching them the wooden dummy otherwise they would quit, and Yip Man said- So quit…
This old master was really bringing up some controversial stuff that would rock the very basis of Hongkong Wingchun, since we have great reverance for those people he mentioned. Hahaha…this granddaddy rocks…
Me thinks its all just bedtime story stuff. And since everyone likes to hear who beat up who, who did who in, its just Martial Arts Entertainment Tonight.
So to add to the western world research on Leung Jan’s Sons, irregardless of the dispute on their skills, lets establise them to have been real people first.
According to Yiu Choi Lineage, Leung Bik, Leung Chun existed and was taught wingchun
http://www.gaopeigen.com/asp-bin/gb/?page=8&class=36&id=59
http://www.gaopeigen.com/asp-bin/gb/?page=8&class=36&id=58
From the Heshan China Goverment(interestingly they also record one of Leung Jan’s children going to vietnam to teach, is that why they have pin sung tsuan ma movements or looks like it?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3g7n_fTOmU )
http://www.heshan.gov.cn/Article/2010/201001/18754.html
Sifu Tam Woon Biu mentions Leung Jan’s Sons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo&feature=channel
Sifu Fung mentions Leung Jan’s Sons in this Kulo Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R92HZs4Aj40
This needs to be updated or removed entirely.
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.LeungBik
Here its is clearly stated in Yiu Choi lineage he did not teach Ip Man in the chart by Yiu Choi descendants
http://www.gaopeigen.com/asp-bin/gb/?page=8&class=36&id=59
And the video states very clearly what was the relationship of these 3 people, Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San, Ip Man as stated by Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San descendants
in china were good friends, and brothers, the fatshan 3 heros.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRLJ50q4vZI
This needs to be deleted
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YiuChoi
Dare I say that this thread is ‘one of the greats’?
Good, neat work here. And great to see stuff on Yiu Choi. Wasn’t there also a Yiu Kil from Foshan, who was Wai Po Tangs Sifu? Anyone know of Wai Po Tang?
I have also heard that Lee Shing learnt from Yiu Choi. Anything published that actually confirms anything about Lee Shing?? It’s a mystery I have been researching for some time…
Wai Po began as a student of Simon Lau I believe. Yui Kil was Yui Choi’s son.
Thank you, I got misled many years back by websites and believing
stories that didnt come from reliable sources which I suspect were ego motivated to push
their name up above others. Alot of the stories told in english in the west
and books are worlds apart from the truth, I reckon due to bad translation and also not
understanding the language, even cantonese spoken in Kulo is different from Hongkong,
with slightly different pitches.
Now I find going into china forums, goverment forums, straight to the families of
the lineages and descendants is the best way to go. It helps to read and write
mandarin.
This is the chinese website for the descedents of Yiu Choi, Yiu Kay and his 3 sons and states exactly the relationship of Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San and Ip Man as described.
http://www.yiuchoiyiukay.com/about2.asp
By the way, the latest movie The legend is born, angered the families of yiu choi and yuen
kay san, because they were shown to be defeated by the japanese yet ip man was able to
hold his own. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRLJ50q4vZI The families said they
will consider legal action if the movie producers do not hold a press conference or make good
the name of their ancestors.
The familes of master yuen and master yiu, and the families
spoke up saying the three of them were like brother, taking care of each other, good friends.
This would have been a great time for them to reveal the dirty secrets that "ip man was once
beaten up by sum nung by a poi pai jeung", or "yuen kay san sent sum
nung to question him because he claimed he was grandmaster" or "ip man learnt from yuen
kay san" or that “ip man learnt the wrong footwork from chan wah shun” etc… all the
stories. I have not found any of these stories from books, magazines, forums or the families
interviews in china. This leads me to conclude its not truth, or someone from the Ip, Yuen,
Sum family would have spoken up already. As you can see it the youtube clip, they dont take
insults to their lineage lying down, they aint no weak man of asia.
They were the 3 heros, wing chun brothers of fatshan, even Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San
descendants record this as so. This is THE HISTORICAL TRUTH. No one should ruin or distort
the story of their friendship and mutual respect
Bart cham dao
Here we see a edited video that Master Lun Gai said Ip Man didnt teach pole and
bart cham dao in Fatshan
Here we see a non edited video that Master Lun Gai clearly states Ip Man taught
him the bart cham dao, multiple times, the translator clearly doesnt do any wingchun(she
doesnt even know who is ip man) so there was no reason for them to have a hidden motive
What’s great is Lun Gai says, “Yip Man never spoke of Leung Bik. Only his Si Hing, Ng Jung So.”
This could be correlation that the story of Leung Bik was made up. The story of Yip Man being a “traitor” learning under Leung Bik (learning the alleged “traditional” version passed down from Leung Jan), why would he not teach his students in Fut Shan? Yip Man made no mention of Leung Bik to his original mainland students…
The second video Lun Gai does not exactly state where he learned his Bart Jaam Dao from, whereas in the first video, he states, Yip Man did not teach the Bart Jaam Dao in Fut Shan, only the 3 forms, Jong and 6.5 point pole. No knives. From where do the Bart Jaam Dao techniques Lun Gai now teaches derive? I listened to the Mandarin and Cantonese speaking translators, and they seemed confused and not quite explaining the English question to Lun Gai, nor was Lun Gai 100% explaining. from my understanding, I assume Lun Gai got his knife methods from the WCK hands and forms, learned from Yip Man, as the translators and Lun Gai were discussing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q2znpGKi5s&feature=related
Yip Man Chum Kiu (incomplete) and Muk Yan Jong (pretty complete) in Futshan (Foshan) - although the moves are slightly different from the HK version, you can see all of Yip Man’s signatures to the Jong.
I saw Derek Frearson and Mark Hobbs versions when I visited the UK.
It is obvious Yip Man revised the teachings in HK. The Futshan Jong set looks a lot like Chu Shang Tin’s set, perhaps a little like WSL’s. William Cheung follows almost the same pattern and juxtaposition as Chu Shang Tin, minus the TWC signatures. So it is an authentic Yip Man set. Futshan and Chu Shang Tin has less repetition than Leung Sheung’s set, which perhaps is a Leung Sheung teaching of balancing left and right. It is of course, more crude than say Moy Yat’s, Ho Kam Ming’s, Wong Long’s (which I saw from John D. and Robert Yeung in Hawaii), and Koo Sang’s sets, which have more or less the same elements as in Yip Chun and Yip Ching’s (and Leung Ting’s) sets.
Interesting evolution.
[QUOTE=dfl;912109]Yip Man’s been dead for over 35 years, and Yuen Kay Shan’s been dead for over 50. We are never going to get the “truth” about what happened between them. What we do get is a lot of claims on websites, some of which provide such amazing levels of detail (and flowery prose which one is only able to encounter in martial arts novels) which even the participants themselves may be hard pressed to supply.
It would be more fruitful to pursue what kind of kung fu a nearly penniless, frail, old man possessed, which blossomed into one of the most popular Chinese martial arts in the world. One honors one’s teachers by trying to achieve to the utmost within one’s own abilities what those teachers taught, not by giving lip service and showing up at the gravesite of famous people for photo ops.
By all accounts from Yip Man’s own students, his abilities were formidable. I have not heard of one single account in decades of reading, that one of his students claim to have bested his teacher, or any claims of “I can take the ‘old man’”. Instead one hears “the ‘old man’ had a heavy punch”. This is unlikely to be modesty or deference to the teacher because among Yip Man’s students (aka “grandmasters”) is no lack of egos. So why is that the case? This man was close to 60 when he started teaching in Hong Kong. His pictures suggest he was never muscular like the actor who portrayed him in the recent movie. I doubt he could qualify for any Olympic event, let alone win one. So how could a frail old man, non-athletic type with no upper body strength be able to convince younger, stronger, heavier, faster, athletic types to become his students and stay loyal for decades? Was he a cult leader? Did he come up with some novel theory of the universe which so mesmerized his followers? Were these students (aka grandmasters) idiots? Or did he just reach a level in an art supposedly created by a small, weak, female such that even without muscles, he was able to overcome bigger, stronger, faster opponents? If the latter, how did he do it?
Can you, using your own Wing Chun, do that? If you can, congratulations. If not, why not?
Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie. And if he ever were in such a situation, he would be dead meat, or deserved to be.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately this statement is false because of Yip Man’s nickname as “the old man”. Old men do not spar full contact with their students. What exactly did he best his students in? Chi sao probably which we have all decided is just a drill and not a true test of fighting skill. These stories are such bs. More than likely Yip did not do much sparring with his students and if any
sparring or chi sao occured his students were polite and let him get the best. Why do you all keep spinning these unverifiable myths?
oh god…
Old men do not spar full contact with their students
These stories are such bs. More than likely Yip did not do much sparring with his students and if any
'Probably" and “more than likely” lol… your a victim of your own criticism bro.
My Teacher was the assistant to Lok Yiu for many years and got lots of one on one training with Ip. He’s recalled many occasions exchanging punches with ‘the old man’… no head shots but all out sparring similar to that of karate kumate. Not bad for a 60(ish) year old. Most couldnt touch him and if you did it was while you were getting your leg stomped or a heavier action as your glanced him lol. Most of the time you were trying hard and he was slapping your chest, good control huh.
Fairly common between teacher and students in anything.
Back in those days Gor Sau was controlled full contact sparring albeit with no head shots and believe it or not you had to have three fights under your belt to move on at levels of the system, oh how the standards have changed :o
Why do you all keep spinning these unverifiable myths?
People love stories, but most dont know someone who has first hand experience cause they are not around.
There are stories from witnesses about Ip kicking a guy at a football match for standing on his clothes and starting S h i t, another where a thief tried to steal a pen… my teacher was present for an altercation between a taxi driver and Ip.
The guy was not a god, but he wasnt a nambie pambie expert in chi sau slap hands either, he was a Wu shu man whos probably rolling in his grave at the state of Guilo VT today :o
According to my teacher who knew him he was upset at loosing control of his school even when he was alive, quite sad really 
DREW
[QUOTE=chusauli;1027740]What’s great is Lun Gai says, “Yip Man never spoke of Leung Bik. Only his Si Hing, Ng Jung So.”
This could be correlation that the story of Leung Bik was made up. The story of Yip Man being a “traitor” learning under Leung Bik (learning the alleged “traditional” version passed down from Leung Jan), why would he not teach his students in Fut Shan? Yip Man made no mention of Leung Bik to his original mainland students…
The second video Lun Gai does not exactly state where he learned his Bart Jaam Dao from, whereas in the first video, he states, Yip Man did not teach the Bart Jaam Dao in Fut Shan, only the 3 forms, Jong and 6.5 point pole. No knives. From where do the Bart Jaam Dao techniques Lun Gai now teaches derive? I listened to the Mandarin and Cantonese speaking translators, and they seemed confused and not quite explaining the English question to Lun Gai, nor was Lun Gai 100% explaining. from my understanding, I assume Lun Gai got his knife methods from the WCK hands and forms, learned from Yip Man, as the translators and Lun Gai were discussing.[/QUOTE]
This thread was about factual truth. This is exactly why I do things in great detail from all families, show historical evidence of interviews and even goverment text like Heshan China Goverment.
I would like to see physical evidence that he was called a “traitor”. Given Ip Man standing now in china, I would be very keen to know the source of your information,an interview or written statement. And if so, why is it not mentioned by his good brothers Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San whose families have come out to state their relationships and standing so opening? Why is lun gai and kwok fu respected as legends in fatshan? Can a “traitor” be named one of the 3 heros of fatshan as stated by his wing chun brothers families or have a china monument build for him in fatshan by the goverment? Surely this kind of statement will not go well with many people in china, hongkong. If by learning from more than one sifu we are traitors, then we find many greats past and present, legends, all guilty of being “traitors”
It is a known fact Master Sum Nung, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi, all these legends learnt from more than 1 sifu amongst many other great people.
I dont have any video that said that. And again thats exactly why I go to multiple sources of information so we do have this kind of situation where the good name of ip man is tarnished.
They were not confused. Its very clear that they asked several times if ip man taught him bart cham dao. The first round he said he learnt it when he was very young. The whole interview was largely about this 1 question. This translator wasnt very good, so I will do part of the job here.
This is my mother tongue mandarin and cantonese, so I will ask any other speaker to tell me which point he claimed ip man didnt teach him the bart cham dao.
The gist of the questions
English: Sifu thinks Sil lim tao is the most important? And also communication
Cantonese: Its normal ways of communication.
English: Where did he first learn his bart cham
Cantonese: I dont remember
English: It wasnt Ip man, it was someone else?
Chinese: Do you remember? Was it Yewen Sifu?
Cantonese: I learn it when I was very young
Cantonese: Was it very fast?
English: Its very important, Mark ask me to ask try and find out where did he really learn his bart cham dao?
Chinese: He says its very important UK siheng wants me to make sure whether how to learn the knives techniques?
English: So Ip man showed him some bart cham?
Chinese: He wants me to make sure it was Ip Man that taught knives
Cantonese: Was it really Ip Man Sifu that taught the knives?
At 4.05
Lun Gai: yes it was ip man sifu
To question leung bik
We must discredit the Chinese goverment who have been keeping historical
records of everyone substantial since goodness knows when.
And master tam from chan yiu ming lineage , and master fung from kulo and yiu choi
descendants because they state it on their website.
Leung Bik existence was a fact, widely known in china it seems.
Robert first to say that stories are just that I don’t care much one way or the other however attempts to discredit the Leung Bik story must first discredit Jiu Wan.
He told his students including his son,this was in the 60’s, that he became a student of Ip because the wing chun Ip did with him in HK was different and Ip’s skill was higher than he had shown or performed in Fushan. When he asked Ip about this Ip told him the differences were what he learned from Leung Bik.
Jui Wan knew Ip well is Fushan they were friends and had worked out together Jui Wan would certainly have known what Ip did in Fushan and what was different in his Hk teachings.
Who knows the truth behind so many old stories but Jui Wan is certainly at least as credible if not more so than anyone saying the story is false.
Also not talking about LB does not mean there was no LB. He didn’t talk to Jui Wan about him in Fushan either. Not talking about something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Leung Jan and his children.
You must also discredit the Chinese goverment who have been keeping historical
records of everyone substantial since goodness knows when.
And master tam from chan yiu ming lineage , and master fung from kulo and yiu choi
descendants because they state it on their website.
Leung Bik existence was a fact, widely known in china it seems.
[QUOTE=hunt1;1027773]Robert first to say that stories are just that I don’t care much one way or the other however attempts to discredit the Leung Bik story must first discredit Jiu Wan.
He told his students including his son,this was in the 60’s, that he became a student of Ip because the wing chun Ip did with him in HK was different and Ip’s skill was higher than he had shown or performed in Fushan. When he asked Ip about this Ip told him the differences were what he learned from Leung Bik.
Jui Wan knew Ip well is Fushan they were friends and had worked out together Jui Wan would certainly have known what Ip did in Fushan and what was different in his Hk teachings.
Who knows the truth behind so many old stories but Jui Wan is certainly at least as credible if not more so than anyone saying the story is false.
Also not talking about LB does not mean there was no LB. He didn’t talk to Jui Wan about him in Fushan either. Not talking about something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.[/QUOTE]
This is good information. No where I have heard this, so its interesting. I have learnt something today. Thank you.
There was a reason for the 8mm filmed, that we see today. Even though he was dying from cancer and couldnt even do bart cham dao, lok dim bun or bil jee.
Ip man knew many out go out and say he learnt this and that, sole inheritor, this is ip man style etc…, my sigung ip chun and ip ching and sifu have repeated this to their students.
What is ip man kungfu? it is what you see, the only footage available of ip man. How did ip man a frail skinny looking man do kungfu, we must look at nei gung training(which includes structure, tendons, liagaments, coiling, opening closing, yi nim, kung lik etc…). This is still very much a hardly practiced activity.
yet it doesnt mean we cannot interprete it the way we see fit, Ip Chun Sigung also said, people play kungfu, its not kungfu playing people. And Ip Ching Sigung also clearly tell others he changed the punch in Bil Jee and he did ask him father.
Ip man said if you change it, and people acknowledge(agree or are okay) it, its okay. Basically we are all unique. You are doing your own wingchun, not anyone elses.
So we have a story of Leung Bik and we can think several things as possible:
- There is a Leung Bik and he taught Yip Man as the story goes…
- Lee Man wrote some fictional accounts of Yip Man and Leung Bik and these got circulated widely through HK newspapers
- Yip Man attributed his own awakening and understanding to Leung Bik, but may not have studied with Leung Bik
- There is something other than these thoughts/stories
Personally of all the stories I have heard the one I heard from Moy Yat I think maybe closest to the truth if only because it fits all the observable facts is a nice simple manner.
It wasn’t Leung Bik but Fung Wah and he had gone with Yip to vist him. LB was used for marketing since few would have heard of Fung Wah or known he was Leung Jans student and Yip was in need of money. They met after Yip fled to Hk in 49.
This story would explain much. Why the WC he taught in Fushan and HK were different. Why in HK his WC changed from what he taught his first students which was very close to his Fushan WC. Yip did tell several students about Fung Wahs skill and seeing him break dummy arms. It also explains both the LB story being made up and still learning different methods from another student of Leung Jan
Of course one might think it is to neat a package.