i’ve wrote this topic before , but without luck .
i am collecting info about differents stories about northern and southern shaolin destruction .
in particular . i want know about the story of traitor monk ma ninger who broke the ancient lantern inside shaolin temple .
do you think this story belong to southern or northern temple legend and why ?
another question :
i 'v found 2 versions of the 5 ancestors . the 5 northern survivors that search a hidden place in the south ( gee sim , ng mui , bak mei , etc ) and the southern fukien temple 5 survivors .
do you know another versions about this story point ?
ps : i am very open about this and i am not searching the only one true legend . i am searching for differents versions of this amazing legend .
This is a bit of an interesting topic. I think the harder you look, the more stories you will find. Many of thes stories were told orally over the years and are bound to change considerably. There were a lot of pulp novels that distorted truths or just plain old made things up…as they were novels. Many of these stories have grown and taken lives of there own. Often they have people learning from figures they had no contact with or were even dead. So be careful.
I have heard several different stories. Sometimes there are 5 surviving monks. Other stories state that the monks survived with a few diciples. Others say a lot of people survived, but they only tell the 5 main monks. Other stories tell of different individuals. There is a martial version with the 5 common monks. There is also apparently a version told with in Hong Kong Associations that tell of totally different individuals.
Then we come to the stories of the Temple…especially the southern one. Todate there is no solid evidence that a southern SHAOLIN temple existed. There indeed were other temples, and even ones that practiced martial arts. But no Shaolin temple seems to exist. THere is a temple that many think might be it, but there is almost no evidence that supports a connection to Shaolin. It sounds more like an educated guess.
To help narrow your search abit, you might want to specifiy if your looking for legend information or historical I would love to see some historical works, though since I don’t read the language, it would do me little good. LOL.
as far as monks names..and ive talked to my sifu about this and he agrees it sounds like a good theory…but as in all oral history..who knows the real truth..names might be differant because these people used differant names..remember they were being hunted ..they could have changed there names at times to protect there identities..its likely they would have used differant names depending on where they where..who they were talking too. etc..i dont know how true my theory really is but its just that..a theory..but id like to hear more of what you find..history always interests me..
i think if we start this type of info search , looking for the authentic true , maybe we don’t find nothing .
i think legends are great , in the same way , the truth is great .
i 've found a lot of info in the master frank yee hung ga web site .
But here’s a thought for you. The destruction of the southern temple figures prominently in both southern KF legend and the legends of secret societies like the Tiandihui. They always refer to five survivors, but those five are completely different in these two traditions. In the Tiandihui, the monks are Cai, Fang, Ma, Hu and Li and this story is part of what is known as the tale of Xilu.
Good point. I have not heard this specific story…probably why its secret. LOL. There is probably a shred of truth in these stories, but remember how they were told and in what context. Things were different back then. We tend to gravitate to martial arts stories, for obvious reasons. But it amazes me how much people take them serious, as 100% fact. There are enough variations alone to discredit the any story as even being close to true, though it is possible that parts of it may have a link. The martial community can’t keep straight what happened 20-50 years ago. Huge fall outs occur over misinformation at less than 100 years ago. Yet we are suppose to beleive these stories? Many pulp novelist popularized many of the famous stories we have today. SO I think we need to look to other sources outside of martial arts. We need to find historical references as well as other references that must exist elsewere.
English isn’t the only language to use allegory, symbolism and metaphore. I’m one of those awful people that thinks the “5 Elders” is simply a fairytale. Being illiterate in Mandarin or Cantonese, I can’t remember the book, but I’m told it comes chapter and verse from a classic Chinese novel.
Its one of those fairytales that we all really want to believe, I agree. Pak Mei even has a really good part in it…I’ve heard many versions <grin>. But the facts are so tightly woven with the fantasy that it really provides only a set of principles and morals worth tally, as opposed to a solid history.
Southern Shaolin appears to me to be more than a concept, or a collaboration than any particular place. Most of the “Southern” Shaolin is really Hakka art. There’s a strong Daoist vein, Shaolin was Buddhist. The “Fall” was all about ming/ching conflict.
Yes, Yes, I know they are digging up the ruins of one right now and rebuilding it, sorry, not sold. Its great that the Government is behind Martial Arts again, many of my Pai did time in “re-education” during the cultural revolution for their art.
Northern, well, I’m willing to believe, but the current incarnation is cut of a different silk robe.
Please don’t think me jaded in my opinion, because there is an up-side. That being that within us all is the opportunity for excellence. It doesn’t take “super-human” characteristics and fantastical powers. It simply takes hard work and devotion. The arts are alive in our hands not, not shadows of former legendary prowess.
i am with you in some things . i am also believe in southern temple like a concept , maybe too legendary and fantastic like the search for " el dorado " ( the mytical inca city of gold ) or the search of the holy grial . but these legends motivate a lot of human passion in the past . too many deaths and time .
they are so fantastic and impossibles that his existence can be true .
sorry , but i am a child , about this .
i need to believe in southern temple and i got to believe in southern temple .
maybe you , from your esmerald city of oz could understand me .
Good to hear others are also taking a rational approach rather than an emotional one. I hate the idea of our stories not being ture, but hey, it doesn’t change our art at all. They are still as good with or without the stories.
I think people become upset and disalussioned when they are told the story is not true. Their sifu “lied” to them or something similar. But I think that is the wrong approach. They are oral stories and are fallible.
Though the stories may or maynot be true, I think there IS value in the old stories. They tell us something. The wing chun legend is particularly usefull. But I think others are as well. What purpose do the stories server for you? Is there any thing you can learn about your art in regards to the story? I suggest there are messages and a learning opertunity embedded in them.
I would not be so quick to discount the legend of the SST…after all everyone including distinguished scholars and archaeologists thought the legend of Troy was a myth and that Troy never existed, until one persistant person who believed it was true, discovered the city of Troy and proved the myth a fact.
That is a good point. However, that is only one example of a few. It is still the exception and we cannot say that because Troy existed, that the southern Shaolin temple did. The southern Shaolin temple existed about a hundred or so years ago, yet there is no trace in ruins or historical documents. No one has a clue where it is, except for this recent excavation. And even the people working on it have doubts. Troy was well over 2000 years ago. But it did exist in several historical and mythological texts. Heck, the northen temple went through several distructions and it still exists.
I would feel much more warm and fuzzy about the temple if people could point to evidence outside of martial arts tales. Show it in writtings or in other disicplines.
Info I have is the SST’s last destruction was about 300 years ago.
Anyway the Troy example was only an analogy to say we should keep an open mind and that where there is smoke or has been smoke…then there was at least some fire.
That the story is connected to the Southern Temple is true:
5 monks escaped the burning of the North Shaolin Temple. With them fled two other monks. They went to Fujian. There a new Shaolin Temple was founded.
So far the legend.
I will keep an eye out for it. I know you can’t say much, gotta keep us willing to buy the mag. LOL. But, can you say if it is an opinion based or researched based artical. Unfortunatley most articals are supported by opinions and loose facts. I would love to find out more about the possiblility of a Nam Siu Lum temple. I would like to see real research done that can either support or dismiss the existance of the temple. Maybe there could be a series of articals talking about the myth and reality of the temple. What the stories are; where they come from; and what is known as fact.
