Southern Shaolin Article

News Flash:

This month’s issue of Kung Fu Qigong magazine features a very interesting article on the Southern Shaolin Temple. It seems the author visited the site and spoke with many of the main people. In the article he offers 10 “proofs” as to the veracity of the temple he visited as being THE Southern Shaolin Temple of legend. Very interesting reading.

One piece of information that stood out was the mention that the only original building left standing from the temple was the Red Flower Pavillion, or Hung Fa Ting (in Cantonese). The author states that the building was constructed in 1646.

Lots of temples in China in that part of the Ming period when
Buddhism was in full flower. Though the main northern temple
became known as Shaolin… the symbolism of shaolin and siu lum
was not uncommon elsewhere. The “young forest” symbolism was part of the transmission of the lamp of Buddhism.
And in the ups and downs of politics and religion lots of temples
got burned or abandoned.

Excellent points, Joy. FWIW, if we want to believe something it is easy to find “evidence” for it. So when looking at the claims of “investigators” or “researchers” we must also look at whether or not they have any investment in a certain “finding.” Btw, the “scientific method” requires that we try and disprove our hypothesis, in part, for this very reason – with any conclusion resting on the strength of our test (which, of course, depends on our rigor in attempting to disprove it).

Terence

I haven’t seen the article but am certainly open to the idea and am very interested in seeing what the author(s?) propose.

Thanks Jeremy,

RR

Whoops

Made a Mistake

I Found This Site Some Time Ago!!!

http://members.lycos.nl/saolim/zuid_shaolin.html

Quote taken from the website>

At this moment there are THREE (yes: 3!) Southern Shaolin Temples in China. All of them are located in Fujian Province.

Some more from the website>

Introduction, from the book: The Riddle of Southern Shaolin (Translated from Shaolin Fang Gu, by Wen Yu Chen ISBN:7-5306-2830-5)
"On April 4, 1992 the Putian city government held a press conference to announce that in a township therein the remnants of the Southern Shaolin Temple had been found. Xin Hua and 19 other Chinese and international news agencies showed up for the conference. Soon after, the news was published in Xin Hua and Zhong Xin outlets. The stories said that the work on the theory that Southern Shaolin was located within the LinQuan Yuan in Putian’s Lin Shan neighbourhood began with the ‘Southern Shaolin Temple Remnants Meeting?on Sept 14, 1991. Attending this meeting were more than 30 scholars and experts from seven provinces and was led by the head of the Chengdu Sports Administration, Prof. Yu Yun Tai, Chinese Peoples University (Renmin Daxue) professor Tai Bao Qi, and professor Luo Zhao of the Chinese Social Science World Religion Research Center. The meeting’s main presentation of evidence was a piece of research by the Fujian Cultural Center, Archaeological Team member Lin Gong Yu, entitled ‘Putian Lin Quan Yuan’ ruins discovery and early analysis.

According to this report, from Dec. 1990 to May 1991 a 1,325 square meter ruin was found with strata beneath that included Song, Yuan, Ming and late Qing dynasty periods. The remnants accord with building techniques of Ming through Song times. At the same time, Song dynasty era carvings were found that have clear writing: ‘Lin Quan Yuan, Enlightened Teacher Nan Ti’s tower, Tian You, thus proving it is indeed Lin Quan Yuan. However, Song era writers record in the ‘San Shan Zhi?(records of San Shan) report that Lin Quan Yuan construction was begun in 557, which is a long way from the Song era (1100’s).

The archaeologist proposes the following theory in the section ‘Concerning the problem of the Southern Shaolin Temple: ‘This find has not found any direct evidence of the Southern Shaolin Temple, but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence which points to this Lin Quan Yuan as being the Southern Shaolin mentioned by so many modern scholars, legends, novels, and stories among the people.

5 points support this conclusion.

First, ‘correct place. Many scholarly reports are that the southern temple was somewhere in Fujian’s Putian ‘jiu lian’mountains. Moreover, the Lin Quan Yuan is found in the Lin Shan neighborhood, which was called Quan Shan in Song times. ‘Jiu Lian mountain came along much later as a result of secret society activity.
Second, the Lin Quan Yuan had martial monks. Within the ruins a large stele was on which was carved ‘This temple’s martial monks Yong Qi and Jin Qi built a trough in Sept. 1063, placed by Ti Rong. The archaeologist concludes, ‘martial monks are naturally associated with Shaolin.

Third, Lin Quan Yuan’s location ‘created the right conditions for Northern Shaolin disciples to visit.
Fourth, Lin Quan Yuan is surrounded by several other temples, ‘and these temples records and steles have many references to Shaolin disciples’. For example, Ku Zhu Temple, Jiu Lian Yan Temple and others record that Shaolin monks built them. The nearby temple’s relationship with Lin Quan Yuan was very close, and some even counted themselves as sub-temples. This seems to show that Lin Quan Yuan could be the Southern Shaolin.

Fifth, the Southern Shaolin ‘has always and forever been related to Hong Men (early triad) legends. Lin Quan Yuan’s own destruction seems to coincide with the legends of early Qing demolition of the Southern Shaolin temple. The temple’s northern building ‘Red Flower Pavilion’ (built in 1646) has written over the door ‘All things return to the 3-foot sword, in the time of the 5 clouds, the 7-star flag will appear, which seem to relate to the Hong Men’s leader, Wan Yun Long. Not coincidentally, many of the late Ming loyalists ‘left home’ (become monks) and entered the Putian, Fujian Jiulian Southern Shaolin temple.

Overall, much of the scholarship in the report is trustworthy. However, the theories in the ‘Concerning the Southern Shaolin problem are not. For example, Hua Qiao University’s Lin Yi Zhou’s work ‘New Study of the Southern Shaolin Temple presents several doubts:
Fan Wen Lian’s 1941 revision of the ‘Complete History of China (school text book), struck out the line ‘Kang Xi’s 13th year, the triads were formed; they were begun by the Putian, Fujian Jiu Lian Mountain Shaolin Temple monks, because it was seen as incorrect and nothing but legend because Putian does not have a Jiu Lian Mountain.
Also, ‘martial monks’are not solely from Shaolin. In the Yuan Dynasty, the Quan Zhou Kai Yuan monastery also had fighting monks.
Therefore, the words ‘martial monks’ carved on the stele cannot be definitively related to Shaolin, northern or southern.

In November 1992 I asked about the problem of Lin Quan Yuan and Southern Shaolin, and after much debate, my opinion (Wen Yu Chen, writer) was asked for. I replied ‘there is nothing in the Songshan (northern) Shaolin Temple’s writings, or other materials we have currently, to indicate a Southern Shaolin
Temple. Whether Lin Quan Yuan is or isn’t, much remains to be seen and only hard research will reveal the truth."

Wow. It would be cool if it existed. Unfortunatly many others have also done research and have found no definative proof one way or the other. Their is no proof what so ever to suggest that the northern temple had relations with the south, from what I understand. The only evidence of a southern temple comes from martial arts groups.

I think it is interesting to note that they mention there is not EVIDENCE. They are working with circumsantial evidence. Basicly theories. I have seen MANY theories that are rediculous in many science discipline. Heck, The “Brontasarous” went around with the wrong head for many decades. No that dinosaur does not exist.

There are many temples around China, to include the southern areas. Many are even Budhist. But that does not make them shaolin. Did they really practice martial arts? Did they actualy excahange monks like Gee Shim? Many temples actualy seemed to do martial arts. Even if this is a Shaolin branch, I think it will be hard to prove unless a a item is found that links the two, which is not very likely.

I personally hope it turns out to be a southern temple. I am VERY skeptical, but open. I think it would “simplify” some things. I just hope people are objective enough to look at what is found and what is presented. None of the 5 points are really that interesting unless your trying to prove one point of view. They are far from solid evidence or even rational.

Tom


FFM *****

Hi Tom,

Tom Parker wrote:

I personally hope it turns out to be a southern temple. I am VERY skeptical, but open. I think it would “simplify” some things.

Even if the existence of a Southern Shaolin Temple was proved, that would not, in itself, prove it had any connection to WCK (other than the various lineage traditions) any more than the existence of the Shaolin Temple proves the Ng Mui story. :slight_smile: So I don’t think it would “simplify” anything.

Terence

Both Tom and Terence have points, and no it wouldn’t prove WCK was Shaolin or anything like that, but it would be one more step in the long, windy road. Besides, I’m a hopeless romantic, and the idea is akin to finding Camalot in terms of Southern Martial mythos.

RR

Now This Is Funny!!!

Tom Wrote>

Wow. It would be cool if it existed. Unfortunatly many others have also done research and have found no definative proof one way or the other. Their is no proof what so ever to suggest that the northern temple had relations with the south, from what I understand. The only evidence of a southern temple comes from martial arts groups.

Rene wrote>

Both Tom and Terence have points, and no it wouldn’t prove WCK was Shaolin or anything like that, but it would be one more step in the long, windy road. Besides, I’m a hopeless romantic, and the idea is akin to finding Camalot in terms of Southern Martial mythos.

Rene Wrote>

Rather than attacking me, attacking Hendrik Santo, attacking David Williams or any of the dozen others currently or formerly “on the list”, a true VTM should be embracing and welcoming the different ideas.

“Thank you!” is what we should be hearing. Thank you for engaging in the dialog, adding to the pool of ideas, broadening the spectrum of discussion. A true VTM, a true Museum or Institute dedicated not to one sifu or system, but to Ving Tsun, demands this.

So good to see you shooting this down, the crazy thing is you’re shooting it down before the article has even come out.:confused:

Is this what you would call being open minded.:wink:

Sheldon

Tom, Click On The Link!!!

Tom, click on the link and actually read what’s on the website,

http://members.lycos.nl/saolim/zuid_shaolin.html

that way you can read down it and not “JUST” what I posted here from the site.

Sheldon;)

Sheldon,

Since you’re from England, I don’t expect you to read English, but come on, if you’re going to troll me, at least troll me accurately, you partisan sod! 8P

reneritchie wrote:

I haven’t seen the article but am certainly open to the idea and am very interested in seeing what the author(s?) propose.

Thanks Jeremy

Geezer wrote:

Whoops
Made a Mistake

Rene Wrote>
quote:Rather than attacking me, attacking Hendrik Santo, attacking David Williams or any of the dozen others currently or formerly “on the list”, a true VTM should be embracing and welcoming the different ideas.

“Thank you!” is what we should be hearing. Thank you for engaging in the dialog, adding to the pool of ideas, broadening the spectrum of discussion. A true VTM, a true Museum or Institute dedicated not to one sifu or system, but to Ving Tsun, demands this.

So good to see you shooting this down, the crazy thing is you’re shooting it down before the article has even come out.

Is this what you would call being open minded.

Sheldon


Geezer,

Your post hits the nail right on someone’s head.

But I will point out that once again, several people have decided to jump all over VTM and HFYWCK family because they feel it is all about slamming instead of learning. I believe Savi has mentioned this before.

It’s always my pleasure to see the certified Clint Eastwood (Geezer) to speak up in the WCK world.

Humm…

Rene, Are You Trolling Me???

Rene Wrote>

Since you’re from England, I don’t expect you to read English

I try my hardest but I have more trouble reading “Canuc”:wink:

Rene Wrote>

Both Tom and Terence have points

I thought you may have been agreeing with this???

Tom Wrote>

The only evidence of a southern temple comes from martial arts groups.

Cor Blimey/God Blind Me :wink:

Rolling_Hand

Rolling_Hand Wrote>

It’s always my pleasure to see the certified Clint Eastwood (Geezer) to speak up in the WCK world.

I prefer “Michael Caine” myself, “Not Allot Of People Kno’d Dtat” :wink:

Trolling_Hand has just confirmed his level of English comprehension is below even that of Geezer and is nothing but a stalker and troll with no concern for WCK or anyone beyond his transparant cult agenda. Thank g0d he’s not Canadian.

Geniuses, I WANT THEIR TO BE A SOUTHERN SHAOLIN TEMPLE, AND I WANT THERE TO BE AN ARTICLE THAT CAN OFFER REASONABLE PROOF FOR ONE.

Next we will discuss the differences between individual standards and standards for institutions that purport to be museums. And then we can again see how Trolling_Hand and Geezer never create problems for the VTM…

Jeez. With friends like y’all…

Rene, Did you Read What Tom Wrote???

Rene Wrote>

Geniuses, I WANT THEIR TO BE A SOUTHERN SHAOLIN TEMPLE, AND I WANT THERE TO BE AN ARTICLE THAT CAN OFFER REASONABLE PROOF FOR ONE.

Tom Wrote>

Wow. It would be cool if it existed. Unfortunatly many others have also done research and have found no definative proof one way or the other. Their is no proof what so ever to suggest that the northern temple had relations with the south, from what I understand. The only evidence of a southern temple comes from martial arts groups.

Rene Wrote>

Both Tom and Terence have points

Is this one of the good points you were talking about:confused:

I understand you said it would be “cool” if there was a Southern Temple but then you seemed to agree with Tom on the above quote.:confused:

Rene Wrote>

And then we can again see how Trolling_Hand and Geezer never create problems for the VTM…

Once again you’re putting words into their mouths, like I said before “I’m Sure If They Had A Problem With Me They Would Speak Up For Themselves”.

Sheldon:D

Canuck has several bad points, including use of superfluous ‘u’ in words like colour, which echoes our colonial roots from Jolly Ole.

Michael Caine used to rule but ever since I saw his acting instructional videos, I can’t watch him without remembering “Am I blinking? Look at me, look at me not blink. Do you see me not blinking?”

Tom’s points which I thought were worthy of agreement were on remembering things are seldom simple, and need to be taken step by step, and looked at as well roundedly as possible, lest in our haste to have our own opinions justified, we cheat ourselves of better knowledge.

Please remember, since unlike others I’m not a cultist or a fanatic, I can agree with you on some points and Tom or others on other points. Also, since unlike others I am trying to find a theory that best fits the facts, and not trying to find facts to best support a theory, I can look at more than one side of something and see validity, and weigh the different aspects without having been ordered to propagate one over the other, or ignore good stuff from either.

Being ‘open minded’ doesn’t mean just being open minded to the VTM/HFY point of view, but to others as well. (Something my detractors have yet to realize).

RR

Southern Temple?

So, did the Dog faced “grandmaster” study HFY back in the day?

Southern Shaolin

Rene

Rene said:

Next we will discuss the differences between individual standards and standards for institutions that purport to be museums. And then we can again see how Trolling_Hand and Geezer never create problems for the VTM…

Mr. Ritchie, I’d like to ask you to please clarify what you mean by this.

Thank you,
-Savi.