The art of CLF grappling

The devastating striking techniques of CLF are quite widespread, but I wonder how many realise that CLF also has a very complete and sophisticated grappling/Cum la system.
If I am not mistaken there is even a whole for containing the cum la/grappling techniques of CLF called something like 18 (?) yum yerng noi ngoi lim sou (18 yin and yang internal and external sticky (?) hands).

I think the form listed in this article:
http://www.clfsd.com/articles.html#system

.“oi lem bic da soy sou ying yang kung”(External yin yang sticky exercise for close fighting and hand breaking)

I think this form also fits the grappling category.

If you have the vcd set of Sifu Chen Yong fa, in one of the discs where he was interviewed you can see the devastating speed and skill of his Choy Lee Fut cum la/ grappling sau faat.

There should be a two man grappling form in the clf system.

Anyone with more knowledge on these forms, please elaborate.

There is a CLF school or two in FL that has incorporated gound fighting/submission wrestling into their curriculum.

How is the CLF grappling practiced? Is there a free style method within CLF? Do you work on the techneques one at a time?

Like all practical skill, kung fu requires hands-on practice for effective learning and mastery. This is even more particularly so for grappling/cum la techniques, and so you would expect the training method to at some stage encompass partner work in addition to self-training.

Certainly you can list joint-locking techniques as technique 1, #2, etc etc in response to grab or hold 4, 5 etc etc however the effectiveness of this method alone is questionable.

Choy Lee Fut’s designer/s was very clever in the construction of the system.Initially, single techniques can be demonstrated and isolated for drill practice on a co-operating partner ----the aim is not to injure him or her but to familiarise oneself with the techqnique and its subtleties, get a hands-on feeling with applying on another person. It makes good sense that if you can’t apply it with speed, accuracy and precision without thinking on the how’s of the technique on a co-operative opponent, then how can you hope to apply it on a resisting opponent. The aim is to learn it so well that is almost like “second nature”.

There is an entire form teaching the series of grappling techniques in CLF, and some techniques are also contained in other advanced hand forms. Choy Lee fut does not confine grappling to only grappling, that is, the grappling techniques are also used in conjunction and in combination with effective striking techniques, resulting in a devastating arsenal of combat tools.
If I am not mistaken,there should be a two-man form of grappling techniques as well.
No one will just stand there and let you grapple them, sometimes you have to use striking combinations and bridge, and have the feeling and sensitivity to feel the force of the opponent and instinctively apply the appropriate technique, and if the opponent successfully counters or escapes, to have the skill and sensitivity to change with the opponent effectively to overcome him or her.
If you have the vcd set of Sifu Chen Yong Fa, have a look at the section where he is teaching the kei lun sau faat or unicorn hands. In it, there are drills where you apply grappling/cumla on the partner, the partner goes with the force and counter grapples you, you of course go with his force and evade to counter grapple him and so it goes on, teaching you to develop a feeling for the techniques and counter techniques, training for sensitivity and familiarity, training technique as well as skill.

Separate isolated techniques are good for drilling, and form is good for remembering and practicing, and in fact I think the appearance of the grappling in other hand forms says something about strategically effective times or moments in other technique combinations to apply cum la.

If you experience the higher level forms of CLF, I think you may be amazed how well built the combinations are, and if you analyse them you may discover very clever strategy/tactics/moments for application.

I encourage those who know the grappling forms to share their views.

I think he’s talking about stand-up grappling…ie kam na/chin na.

no, I’m talking about fighting on the ground, and not necessarily to get right back up to the feet. I just saw their website a few weeks ago and was pleasantly surprised.

I realize what you are talking about…I’m just saying that the “grappling” that he referred to at the beginning of the thread is stand up grappling, not ground fighting. If CLF traditionally has groundfighting that would be news to me.

Props to that school though for being able to incorporate it. I’d personally like to learn few ground fighting escapes just so I can get back up on my feet if I need to.

FP

I see,

the “he” was for Vstanmore.

My mistake.

Choy Lee Fut does have “take downs” in the form of throws, sweeps and tripping ,and cum la.A take down does not have to be in the form of a “shoot” to be a “take-down”. The method can be variable, but if it delivers the goods then it is a take-down! CLF is a fighting system and not a sports competition so you would likely see more emphasis on a quick incapacitation of the opponent, and my opinion is in actual serious application the cum la with the correct ging and technical details can easily be converted to a “break” rather than a “submission” for the “tap”. And the cum la locks can easily be converted to a “throw”.

Choy Lee Fut is such a deep system it can cater for the fighting preferences of many different people, personalities and body types.
Perhaps the hand techniques of CLF are more widely known and preferred by its practitioners than the other aspects like kicking and cum la. But Chan Wan Hon, son of the 3rd keeper of CLF, Chan Yiu Chi, was known for his kicking prowess. He was a fighter and quick to accept a challenge match, and many a challenger fell from his kicking attacks. The Kow tan take-down was also one of his favourites.

Another elder of CLF, sil lau gau was suppose to be devastating with the peck choi technique. It particularly suited him and he has been referred to by some as the king of peck choys.

The cultural revolution was a bad time for chinese kung fu. The training had to go into more hidden, and workers spent long hours of the day at work. So training with forms were more restricted. But Chan Wan Hon taught his students the see lo sarn sau training, which is a series of extremely effective combinations of bagua hands/ fighting techniques from the choy lee fut arsenal and produced very good fighters. If I’m not mistaken, the kow tan take down can be found in the first of the series of the see lo sarn sau.

There is a lot of treasure in the choy lee fut system, but of course the ignorant might make things up and ramble ramble.

What do you think of these “solutions”?

“if you don’t have it, make it up”??

“fake it…until you make it”??

:smiley:

Chen Yong-Fa’s father Chan Wan Hong also thought there were too many forms in CLF, so he attempted to distill the essence into the see lo sarn sou and not just because of the cultural revolution when they have to train in a tight spaces and hidden from view. It was indeed an extremely hard time for the family.

Look carefully and you will see the nei lim sou as well as the take downs in the se lo.

Pity no one teaches this now.

Hi EJ,
Thanks for the info. I think had Chan wan hon gotten his project off the ground and distilled the essence of all the fist forms into 3 sets, we would have another treasure for a “crash-course” in the essence of the art of Choy Lee Fut kung fu!

Translation?

oh, and to punk arse talking sheet, Chan Heung created and developed his gung fu much the way anyone today could do.

There was nothing special about chan heung. he didn’t have some super human strength. He didn’t create his CLF out of nothing at all. he learned what he did and then devoloped it from there.

So I am pretty good with my CLF (i mean using it in real life) and i was never taught the dummy set and put one together that was one-effective-two-looked just as good, or even better than what Koon Pak did then what is the problem?

you act like everything just was prior to Chan Heung. why did he spend more than 20years of his life developing it if it was so great from its inception? why was it continuing to be developed even after Chan heung’s death?

You talk all this mess and are so enthralled in the fact that Chan heung created your branches CLF. But chan Heung was just an oridnary human being, just like the rest of us. he wasn’t some boy genious. he wasn’t and idiot savant. he was just a man who loved martial arts that happened to develop a NEW system.

Why was it okay for Chan Heung to develop a NEW system, but its not for anyone else? it sounds like a control factor to me.

I don’t consider you at the same level as Chan Heung or Chan Koon Pak in terms of kung fu.

Chan Heung spent more than 20 yrs gathering and refining his skills from 3 teachers. And add to that the INHERITANCE OF SHAOLIN KUNG FU from shaolin monk Choy Fook. The complexities of the wooden dummies, depth of the system, and comprehensiveness of the style of Choy lee Fut founded by Chan Heung. Do you think you can easily find a man off the streets who thinks he is a good brawler and expect something like Chan Heung’s CLF to be MADE UP in ONE GENERATION?? (Like you think you can do…make up this and that equal or better than koon pak’s! :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: )

So are you admitting you are MAKING UP THINGS (wooden dummy??) now because your lineage does not have it?? So are you MAKING UP JONGS for each or almost each of your hand sets? Before you go about MAKING THINGS UP, do you understand the specific training philosophy/principles and essence of each of the different sophisticated CLF wodden dummies??

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41441&page=10

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41429&page=7

Are you now going to MAKE UP SOME ANIMAL FORMS FOR YOUR LINEAGE?? But what if the animal forms were inherited and developed for some generations from as eartly as the shaolin temple, do you still think you can MAKE UP SOMETHING better of ‘just as good’??

You can make up things as you want, you can make up jong for each hand set but don’t cheat people! Tell them plainly its not a traditional knowledge. Tell them you just made it up. The karate guys can also make up a jong for each of their kata, and teach it to their black belts. But they shouldn’t cheat people and tell them they have traditional jongs for kata passed down from Gichin Funakoshi!

And before you go about MAKING THINGS UP, do you understand the specific training philosophy/principles and essence of each of the different sophisticated CLF wodden dummies??

What do you think about these “solutions”?

“If you don’t have it, make it up”??

“Fake it…until you make it”?? :rolleyes: :smiley: :smiley:

I don’t consider you at the same level as Chan Heung or Chan Koon Pak in terms of kung fu.

Chan Heung spent more than 20 yrs gathering and refining his skills from 3 teachers. And add to that the INHERITANCE OF SHAOLIN KUNG FU from shaolin monk Choy Fook. The complexities of the wooden dummies, depth of the system, and comprehensiveness of the style of Choy lee Fut founded by Chan Heung. Do you think you can easily find a man off the streets who thinks he is a good brawler and expect something like Chan Heung’s CLF to be MADE UP in ONE GENERATION?? (Like you think you can do…make up this and that equal or better than koon pak’s! :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: )

So are you admitting you are MAKING UP THINGS (wooden dummy??) now because your lineage does not have it?? So are you MAKING UP JONGS for each or almost each of your hand sets? Before you go about MAKING THINGS UP, do you understand the specific training philosophy/principles and essence of each of the different sophisticated CLF wodden dummies??

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41441&page=10

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41429&page=7

Are you now going to MAKE UP SOME ANIMAL FORMS FOR YOUR LINEAGE?? But what if the animal forms were inherited and developed for some generations from as eartly as the shaolin temple, do you still think you can MAKE UP SOMETHING better of ‘just as good’??

You can make up things as you want, you can make up jong for each hand set but don’t cheat people! Tell them plainly its not a traditional knowledge. Tell them you just made it up. The karate guys can also make up a jong for each of their kata, and teach it to their black belts. But they shouldn’t cheat people and tell them they have traditional jongs for kata passed down from Gichin Funakoshi!

And before you go about MAKING THINGS UP, do you understand the specific training philosophy/principles and essence of each of the different sophisticated CLF wodden dummies??

What do you think about these “solutions”?

“If you don’t have it, make it up”??

“Fake it…until you make it”?? :rolleyes: :smiley: :smiley:

Hey EJ!

Why go learn the traditional kung fu style called Choy Lee Fut?? If I can get you the market, can you MAKE UP a gorilla form for the customers who would like such a form, or even a gorilla style for those who would like to go further with gorilla?? :smiley: :smiley:

and he doesn’t realize i know he’s kenny poop.

I would agree with you there. His constant badgering of you was a trademark before..

Let’s be fair, I don’t think he is the only one who is constantly badgering and I am not referring to anyone in particular.

Lets all stop and go to some practice.

OK?

You would be surprised to how easy a “submission” can produce something called a “broken joint.”

It’s called applying pressure.

Fighting is fighting is fighting. Sport or non-sport, gloved or bare knuckle. Fighting is fighting.

If you can fight, you can fight.

If you can’t, then you can’t.

In my experience “sport” and “competition” produces far more fighters than non-sport ones. The reason? Training methodology. CLF is so ****ing badass if everyone would simply train with 100% aliveness and full intent . . . . . . . .