Any one here ever fight vs a grappler ( by which i mean some one who attack is trying to take the fight to the ground) was wondering what type of tactics a clf person would use to keep fight from going to the ground. ive only been possed by Choy Lay Fut for about 4 years now so not entierly sure if we have ground grappling like jui jitsu, sambo etc practice. what ive learned so far grappling wise has been arm, wrist breaks and dislocations. I certinally havetn seen every thing in the style yet so was wondering if u guys coudl clarify this for me :D. personally i havetn seen a postion BJJ or any of the other styles that relie on ground work have any postions i cant bite, scratch, gouge etc so not really looking for techniques like that. ide maybe like to try my luck at a sport like ufc or similar so woudl need techniques that could be used in it.
Most traditional CMA do not focus on ground work. They simply try to avoid going to the ground altogether. I can think of a few styles that might emphasize this aspect of fighting ie Tai Shing Pek Kwar (Monkey Boxing), Fukien Ground Boxing, Shui Chiao (possibly?). But even in these styles, the goal is to temporarily take a low position to evade or possibly upset your opponents balance rather than spend a lot of time “wrestling” on the ground.
I’m sure I’ll get flamed for this but contrary to what BJJ guys would have you believe, most fights do not “go to the ground.” In fact if you are fighting against a traditional martial artist if you go to the ground you have probably already lost because you are going there on your head, or shoulder or hip! Or you are on the ground because you are physically incapable of standing.
I think that there is a false impression on these boards that you need “ground game” in order to be a “complete” fighter. I think this misconception is perpetrated by UFC and NHB type events. I’ve watched a few of these in my day. These guys (especially the BJJ) guys try to take the fight to the ground ASAP. Then they proceed to “hang on” and “ride” their opponent until he is purely exhausted more than anything.
In the ring this is a great strategy, especially if you are fighting a bigger and stronger opponent. You just wear him out until you can make him tap out. But on the street you don’t have time for this…you have literally SECONDS!! If you’ve ever been in a bar scrap or jumped by a couple guys at one time you have to deal with things very quickly and very efficiently. There’s no time to “hang” on your opponent and wear him out. There’s very rarely even time to go to the ground.
So anyways, no, to answer your question CLF does not have ground fighting. But CLF is not all long range. There are trips, throws, sweeps, joint locks, reversals, bridge hands, etc but not ground game per say. At least not to my knowledge.
I’ve also studied Hung Ga and Chen Taiji and they don’t have this concept either.
CLF stand up
Clfhs4life, there is no “groundfighting” per se in CLF (unless someone out there created an “offshoot” branch that does). There are a few standing parrying, grabbing and grappling techniques that aim to knock your opponent down or even to break while standing but IMHO these techniques either aren’t drilled enough, or does not take a serious, quick and skilled striker into account ie: it’s a lot harder to “catch” a strike than some people think.
So you want to do UFC type fighting? I’m a Choy Lay Fut man that is training to do the same. I however elect to go all out in BJJ and MMA style grappling to do so.
If you do not want to do the same, at the very least I suggest that you work with wrestlers and learn the proper underhooks, sprawling and whatnot to avoid being taken down. It is not enough to just “learn” these techniques either. You must drill them consistently in order for your muscles and nervous system to respond properly in competition or a real life situation.
BTW: It’s actually much easier to go to the ground in a real fight than some people think. I’ve seen awesome strikers on the street get tooled on the ground by someone better versed on the ground, and it’s because they were either knocked down by an unorthodox technique, or they simply SLIPPED, which happens quite often in a bar or a club scenario.
Re: CLF stand up
Originally posted by k-no
BTW: It’s actually much easier to go to the ground in a real fight than some people think. I’ve seen awesome strikers on the street get tooled on the ground by someone better versed on the ground, and it’s because they were either knocked down by an unorthodox technique, or they simply SLIPPED, which happens quite often in a bar or a club scenario.
Are you talking about traditional martial artists or street fighters or boxer or people with zero training? It seems to me that street fighters can usually throw a pretty mean punch but lack “root” and so can easily be pushed or taken down.
BTW, I’m not saying that there is no value in ground fighting. Obviously, there is the real possiblity that you may come up against that very situation.
It’s just that the focus of CMA is not to go there in the first place…or that if you send your opponent to the ground that it is not to get on the ground with him, it is with the intention to hurt him by smashing him into it. (And I believe that if you look across CMA styles that this is the case.)
Actually, CLF does have groundfighting techniques, but I think only some branches still retain and teach it. It’s taught at a much higher level, however, reserved for advanced students. A lot of chin na stand-up grappling is also applicable on the ground if you know how to adjust and apply the techniques.
However, if your branch of CLF does not have the CLF groundfighting, then by all means seek it elsewhere.
Agreement with Serpent
Choy Li Fut does have ground fighting, and, I claim, it is in the forms. Each person just needs to find it in the forms and practice it. It is not necessarily the same thing as the more popular wrestling seen in martial circles, but it is there.
Overall, too, staying on the ground is not a prized position for most martial artists.
Doug M
ya i agree the ground is the wrost place you can end up in a fight but if i do end up there i want to be able to defend my self. sadly i find this is a very probable situation that most strickers neglect. hope to see more Clf practioners puting their skills to the test.
CLF Ground Fighting?
Fu Pow, as a stand up fighter, I am as well much more at home standing up than otherwise. I have been told I have very good base and as far as takedown defense is concerned, I hold my own in my weight class pretty well as far as not getting taken down. However, I find in myself as well as other skilled strikers I know whose first art was not grappling, that when you DO manage to get taken down (which is inevitable if you’re training consistently), you are like a fish out of water, your stand up conditioning that can get you through round after round in stand up fighting, all of a sudden deserts you when you are fighting a ground technician. So I agree with you that the ground is the last place I want to be, but if I “hit the water” I want to “be able to swim”. I don’t care how fit you are, its not as easy as it looks. You get gassed pretty quickly on the ground if you never train for it.
(Everyone else) As far as CLF “groundfighting”. Okay…its in the forms? Which native CLF forms? Can you cite sources? I’m not going to debate this, but in my experience in TMA, “it’s in the forms” is quite a cop out. Also, just like striking in forms, if all you do is drill this supposed “groundfighting” in the form, how the hell do you know it actually works? I’m pretty skeptical that anything you might term “groundfighting” in CLF is actually being drilled by anyone, much less drilled in a reality based scenario by two practicioners. And when I mean groundfighting, I DO MEAN groundfighting, not some techniques to use on the ground so you can stand back up. And especially not some stuff the instructor came up with piecing parts of some form together to create “groundfighting”.
This reminds me of an article I read on Shotokan Karate “groundfighting” that mysteriously was not being taught in any Karate schools until quite conveniently, the advent of the UFC and it’s similar sister promotions.
k-no,
There is no reason to become defensive or aggressive. No, to say something is in “the forms” is not a cop out. You explore the forms, you use your mind to figure out what you can do, and you apply it. It is pretty easy to do once you do it. Maybe you mean something else when you say “groundfighting.” However, just because you have not referenced the forms to see this possibility does not mean it does not exist.
Go through teh first Choy Li Fut form you learned. If you do not find any ground techniques in it, you need not bother with it anymore in this thread.
Doug M
While I agree to a certain extent with Doug, there are also ground grappling techniques within the CLF system. If your teacher knows them he will no doubt teach them at some point.
*get’s a nice healthy apple, pulls up lawn chair, adjusts binoculars.
K-no,
I hear what you are saying and I think you hear what I am saying.We are prejudiced by our own real life experience. In my real life fighting experience I’ve had people try to take me down, even on a slippery bar floor, but because my root is very strong I’d always end up on my feet even if they managed to move me back aways. So I’ve never thought it very important to learn ground grappling. However, I’d like to learn a few good ground grappling techs at some point.
As for the rest of you CLF guys:
-
Please identify the forms that contain groundfighting.
-
Please identify movements from any form that contains ground fighting.
Your martial arts background might help you identify weak/vulnerable spots on a persons body in a very general way. This might help you on the ground. But unless you have trained specifically to fight from a kneeling position I have a hard time seeing how your CLF or any other stand up art training is really going to help you.
I don’t necessarily agree that knowing how to ground fight is essential. But I do agree that stand up and ground are two different aspects of fighting with their own methodologies.
Peace.
Do the “ground” techniqes clf have flow like standing clf. iam a student of master Tat Mau Wong so maybe some of you know if we do. havetn had a chance to ask any of my sifus if there is ground work yet but if not what is a good style to try any sugjestions. rather be prepared for that attack from behind. i personally think its just predajude agisnt grappling arts that more strikers dont train in it. if a person thinks they cant and wont be taken down in a real fight from one way or another they got a rude awakening coming. its much better to be prepared for the worst then exspect it will turn out the way you wanted it to. most of the fights ive seen always had more then 1 person. not always more then 1 person fighitng but they were never alone. I belive a really good Clf fighter can keep the fight from going to the ground but in the spirit of kung fu we shoudl all be prepared for that rainy day when it does happen just my 2cp 
Hi!
First post on the forums…
There are some ground fighting in the snake forms of CLF, but these techniques are mostly to defend or attack against a standing opponent and are not your typical ground fighting techniques.
Also there is supposed to be a form for wrestling movements(throws etc.), but this form is really rare. I’m not sure if this form has some ground fighting as well, maybe not. I suppose only some of the lines teach this form and then at a very high level. Would really like to see that one in action thou.
I agree that saying that something is in the form is waaaay too vague to be of any use. Hmm, the first two forms I learned were ng lung ma and peng yang, and there are NO ground fighting in those…
Tapani
Ground boxing is NOT ground fighting..,
K-no,
good post, although there are some points which I don’t agree with. First of all, I don’t think that most fights end up on the floor. I have had this discussion with my friend many time over, and I still don’t believe it is all true.
I have worked as a bouncer and have had my fair share of ‘ street fights’ – if you really want to call it that. In my personal experience, very few fights go to the floor, as mostly fights are not just one on one. More than often, you are either in a group, or your opponent is part of a group. If I take you to the floor, your friends will kick the living daylights out of me, and vice versa. It just don’t happen exactly like that in reality.
However, I also say that you do need to know how to fight on the floor. Here BJJ is way more superior than any other art that I have come across (and again its simply my own opinion). I have seen some stand up fighters who really got taken by surprise by a good grappler, so I fully understand your view.
”street fighting” doesn’t really resemble UFC type fighting. Although it might be more closer than some other fighting sport, I have not seen enough proof to make me think other wise. Most real fights I have seen, is over in an instant.
I remember some time back you mentioned about training for some ufc tournament and you mentioned how you like throwing charp choys from the mount position. Hows it all going? You done some tournament? Keep us updated. It’s about time a CLF guy ruffles some feathers over at the MMA scene. I wish you all the luck.
Python shape boxing…
This is no joke, I once read about python style which is supposed to be the Chinese version of BJJ …
I wonder where I read this again..
I think the CLF monkey set has some “ground” fighting techniques, but not in the traditional BJJ sense. CLF has cum la and various takedowns and sweeps, however I agree its more of a stand-up art. The focus is in no way shape or form to the ground like BJJ or even other takedown arts like judo or aikido.
CLF is first and foremost a striking art. No art is 100% full proof everything has a weakness or two. To supplement some ground fighting (ie. submissions, grappling or whatever) is okay a helps make a person well-rounded to handle any situtation.
That being said I am quite traditional and prefer the CLF itself.
Peace.
Perhaps a semantic distinction needs to be made between:
“Fighting from the ground”
and
“Ground fighing.”
“Fighting from the ground” implies the following: You are on the ground either on your hands, your knees or back. Your opponent is standing. You are using primarily the legs to injure or fell your opponent. Example: Tai Shing Pek Kwar Monkey Boxing, Capoeira.
“Groundfighting” implies the following. Both you and your opponent are on the ground, hands, knees or back. You are jockeying for the dominant position to execute a joint locking or submission technique. Examples: Wrestling, BJJ
CLF may “Fighting from the ground” eg in the CLF monkey form. But I seriously doubt it has a form for “Groundfighting.”
Does that help clarify?
…groundfighting…
I’m not saying MOST fights end up on the ground. I’m saying a lot more fights end up on the ground than some people think. In a lot of cases, skilled boxers and martial artists get taken down quite easily because, frankly, they think they are “too good to be taken down” or are just not expecting it. I’ve known many people who were quite proficient fighting on the street, and managed to keep it on their feet. Usually this was the case because BOTH PARTIES ELECTED to stay on their feet. I also know some rough guys who have a wrestling background. 9 times out of 10 during the streetfights I’ve seen them in or heard from others, when they wanted someone on the ground, it WENT to the ground. One of my seniors, who is much more skilled than I in CLF knows about my other training and even asks me to train with him sometime in takedown defense, because "(our friend) keeps taking him down and slamming him when they spar.
In one case I was witness to, a friend of mine fought a TKD black belt who knew his stuff. After squaring off and trading some good shots, my friend, who was untrained in any combat arts but was filled with a “you stole my girlfriend” rage, instinctively clinched and tripped the TKD guy, quite easily if I may add. The TKD guy, who gave my friend a nice array of bumps and bruises and a couple of swift kicks to the head not only a minute earlier, had only this to offer as defense; a hearty array of expletives interspersed with “Get off me! Get off me!” Since my friend was untrained, he was unable to finish him in this position, but he knew well enough to use his limbs to block the TKD man’s armpits so he could not use his hands.
The above experience would have ended MUCH differently had one or both persons knew a thing or two about fighting on the ground. This was not a “set up fight”, but happened out of the blue as we were driving and I stupidly (or not so) commented, "Hey, isn’t that (your girlfriend) with that dude?
As far as the forms thing…me, aggressive? Not at all. But it is all quite vague. I bet I could find moves in CLF forms that can help me climb trees too. But does that make it valid?
Regarding Fu Pow’s last comment; YES, that is what I mean. I’ve no doubt that some CLF and Monkey style techniques “fighting from the ground” have some obvious effectiveness, I just don’t see them working on world class fighters, especially if they decide to engage you on the ground.
In addition…
Hey Eddie,
Thanks for the luck, I'll need it. I stopped training (MMA) a few months ago because of business, now after tax time here in the US, I've recently started up again and am quite serious with it now. I'm training with a great bunch of guys who are all great at what they do. I've got a lot more things to learn and a whole hell of a lot more conditioning before I am ready, but I rolled with #1 ranked Shooto fighter Jake Shields who fights in Japan and he reckons if I come in regularly I should be ready to rock in 6 months. (By the way, he totally OWNED me on the mat) Let's see if my body can take all this abuse for that long!
As an aside, I used to train with UFC fighter Eugene Jackson’s guys. Not many people know this, but he was a Kung Fu man as well. So there you have a good representative of kung fu in MMA, although he used a lot of submission grappling techniques. If you watch his fight with Yamamiya in one of the UFC Japans, you’ll see him use some switch step and punch technique, TWICE, connecting both times. Eugene told me that he was using a Mantis technique.