when you say all fights eventually end up on the ground, do you mean that the fight will end up looking like some sort of high school wresteling match? Or are you saying that at the end of the fight someone will end up counting stars? Due to personal experience I’ve come to believe that if both fighters end up on the groung it’s because A… they cant fight. or B… they want to be on th groung. But, standing or groung fighting if these aspects are included in your style wouldn’t you still be fighting your fight?
1, fight can end above the ground
2, fight can end up on the ground
3, FIGHT CAN GOING DOWN TO THE GROUND AND MOVE UP TO ABOVE THE GROUND.
4, FIGHT CAN GOIND DOWN TO THE GROUND AND MOVE UP TO ABOVE GROUND AND DOWN TO THE GROUND…
All sort of possibilities…
Going down to the ground Doesnt means the end of the fight, Right?
Why let others brain wash one’s mind to believe in a certain things? and let that belive handling oneself ?
Saying that doesnt mean there is no issue one needs to face and solve about facing ground fighting.
But, if the mind is believing " end on ground " is the way or resisting the believe with anger or trying to force a solution or in strong denial, then one has already being trap in the believe.
So, first, break through that belive or Anti belive anger due to fear of it ( fear of unknow, fear of failure…fear of lost…) with observation what really happen; get some fresh “air” for the mind, then face and solve the issues if any exist.
Living in Now, not in the mercy of others’ speculation.
only when one’s mind is free from negative believe, fear, negative prediction/projection…which is all future projection related;
then one can live freely to face and solve what needs to be solved in the way it needs to be done.
The ancestor of Wing Chun Said " comes, accept; goes, let it be." using the AWARENESS, not that believe, future speculating/projection, thinker, that is the path way to freedom. A top secret of Wing Chun hide openly in front of everyone’s eyes.
pressure comes from losing the AWARENESS and trap in the Thoughts of thinker busying projecting and speculating what might happen in the future, Anger comes from in denial of the past. Chi Sau train one to see thought those speculation and projection and denial without control by them and ----- to live in NOW.
As in the daily life,
if one belive the fortune telling that today one will fall. one will in a great chance fall due to one make it so to fulfill the self profecy.(sp?)
If one read the daily horoscope website and believe in it. then that horoscope website is going to control one’s life.
Because one belive it.
belive is a "short cut " it by passed all the metal process to arive at execution.
So, is it about the kick of Muay Thai, the choke of Grapper, and every a few decades new stuffs comes up? or is it about how to handling one self and then solve what one will face?
Re: All fights end up on the ground?
Originally posted by Shadow Skill
when you say all fights eventually end up on the ground, do you mean that the fight will end up looking like some sort of high school wresteling match?
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step out of the 90’s - alot of fights do end up on the ground, but not 90%, as they used to say.
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shadow skill was a decent anime. As an aside, before my caption read “hitokiri battousai”, it said “shadow skill - shadows kill”
Or are you saying that at the end of the fight someone will end up counting stars?
no.
Due to personal experience I’ve come to believe that if both fighters end up on the groung it’s because A… they cant fight. or B… they want to be on th groung.
due to personal experience, I’ve come to believe that there are WAY more factors than that. For example,
- there are multiple attackers and you get knocked down.
- you slip on clothes, a puddle, etc. and fall
- he slips and drags you down with him.
- you said THEY want to be on the ground. Not necessarily… what if HE wants you on the ground? you may not be able to stop him from taking you there.
But, standing or groung fighting if these aspects are included in your style wouldn’t you still be fighting your fight?
Not if you suck at it. “your fight” isn’t necessarily style based. It’s based on what you do best.
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
[B]
As in the daily life,
if one belive the fortune telling that today one will fall. one will in a great chance fall due to one make it so to fulfill the self profecy.(sp?)
If one read the daily horoscope website and believe in it. then that horoscope website is going to control one’s life.
Because one belive it.[/b]
there is a difference between false fate and tangible technique. If you believe in the horoscope, it’s false fate can control you. If I hit you in the face, it will hurt, regardless of whether or not you believe it. You can’t really liken the two…
So, is it about the kick of Muay Thai, the choke of Grapper, and every a few decades new stuffs comes up? or is it about how to handling one self and then solve what one will face?
Do you not think that knowing how to deal with such techniques is part of “handling yourself”? I think the past 10 years has been an excellent indication that you will most likely be taken to the ground by a grappler if he wants you there and you don’t know how to defend against grapplers. This doesn’t mean that you have to go train bjj, but IMO, “handling yourself” definitely involves knowing how to deal with it.
Sevenstar was correct in that the original statistic espoused was that 90% of fights end up on the ground.
My favorite saying about statistics is:
“Statistics are like a lamppost to a drunken man - more for support than illumination.”
Various “studies” conducted by martial artists have led to widely varying conclusions about the likelihood of fights hitting the floor, with an almost amazing correlation between the study’s “proven” most likely outcome and the range or phase of combat in which the “investigator”'s MA style purportedly excels.
A sensible MAist will train for and explore all possible eventualities, and avoid obsession, wishful thinking and denial about the many possibilities.
there is a difference between false fate and tangible technique. If you believe in the horoscope, it’s false fate can control you. If I hit you in the face, it will hurt, regardless of whether or not you believe it. You can’t really liken the two… ------ S
You must have missed a part of what I have posted above.
Saying that doesnt mean there is no issue one needs to face and solve about facing ground fighting.
My fights tend to end up underground.
nah, I read that part. I addressed the portion I wanted to address.
Re: All fights end up on the ground?
SS,
As YellowPikachu pointed out, being aware of your situation will allow you to avoid going to the ground or even getting in the fight in the first place. Being confident in your skills will let you move in such a way that you do not look like a good victum to predators. Having positive energy will make negative people avoid you.
If you don’t want people to be able to take you to the ground then you need to have very good footwork and be able to quickly break grips. One way to break grips is to break the fingers gripping you (Mr Pinky meets back of Mr Wrist is very effective). In my experience people can only grapple with you if you are unwilling to maim them.
If you are the more skillful of the two fighters then you can decide to end the fight standing up or on the ground. The less skillful fighter’s choices are dicated by the guy with more skill. Before the Gracies there wasn’t too much talk of most fights ending up in grappling on the ground. Since people didn’t have this mindset then they probably tried to punch each other out. But now that people have this BJJ, MMA and WWF mindset, then more fights probably do end up on the ground.
The modern trend is to learn both striking and grappling. A guy that starts martial arts young can easily learn both. Five years of training put into each is plenty of good quality time. I would train grappling first and hitting next. Maybe BJJ, then Thai Boxing, then Filipino stick and knife fighting and then some formal Asian martial art or sticking to one of the previous three, is a good progression to cover all the bases.
anerlich wrote:
Sevenstar was correct in that the original statistic espoused was that 90% of fights end up on the ground.
My favorite saying about statistics is:
“Statistics are like a lamppost to a drunken man - more for support than illumination.”
**Or as Mark Twain wrote, “There are liars, **** liars, and statisticians.”
YongChun wrote:
If you are the more skillful of the two fighters then you can decide to end the fight standing up or on the ground. The less skillful fighter’s choices are dicated by the guy with more skill.
**It’s not that simple. As we are bipedal (and need to work to maintain standing), it is more difficult (takes more skill) to maintain our balance and not get taken down than it is to take someone down. This is why it is very frequent (who really knows the exact percentage?) to end up on the ground.
**The advice I would give anyone with questions about the need for groundfighting is just go out and fight (at MMA academies, muay thai gyms, kyokushinkai schools, NHB gyms, whatever) or just get together with as many “friends” as possible, put on some gear and mix it up – do nothing for a couple of months but fight with as many different types of people and styles as possible. You’ll then have the experience to determine for yourself whether you need it or not (and to answer a whole host of questions).
Regards,
Terence
Originally posted by t_niehoff
**The advice I would give anyone with questions about the need for groundfighting is just go out and fight (at MMA academies, muay thai gyms, kyokushinkai schools, NHB gyms, whatever) or just get together with as many “friends” as possible, put on some gear and mix it up – do nothing for a couple of months but fight with as many different types of people and styles as possible. You’ll then have the experience to determine for yourself whether you need it or not (and to answer a whole host of questions).
It can also raise a few questions too. -Such as;
“Why did I spend so much time and energy in the past avoiding doing this just to protect my ego?” 
Hmmm…
Maybe letting my ego take a few bumps and bruises is one of the best things for me. (Keeps me from getting a little TOO full of $hit…) 
-Lawrence
Originally posted by anerlich
[B]Sevenstar was correct in that the original statistic espoused was that 90% of fights end up on the ground.
My favorite saying about statistics is:
“Statistics are like a lamppost to a drunken man - more for support than illumination.”
Various “studies” conducted by martial artists have led to widely varying conclusions about the likelihood of fights hitting the floor, with an almost amazing correlation between the study’s “proven” most likely outcome and the range or phase of combat in which the “investigator”'s MA style purportedly excels.[/B]
Statististions certainly have their issues. However, in this case, the fault lies not in the stats, but in ourselves. 
http://www.edatkd.com/fighting_myths.htm
Originally posted by anerlich
A sensible MAist will train for and explore all possible eventualities, and avoid obsession, wishful thinking and denial about the many possibilities.
I understand your point of view. However, to “train for and explore all possible eventualities” is actually “obsession, wishful thinking and denial about the many possibilities” of life outside the MoKwoon
I feel it is better for a sensible Martial Artist to just be honest, enjoy what they are doing, and let life take its all too easily derailed course no matter where their practice may lead.
Question for all those who are reading this thread:
What percentage of real fights (not organized events) that you’ve ever witnessed/engaged in DID NOT go to the ground?
Victor, I gave this some thought. Had to take a trip in the way back machine too. Since I learned WC have only been in one fight.
In my younger days was in a few. Had my nose broken 7 times,broken jaw. 70 stiches to the head,broken cheekbone,several broken ribs and some other bumps. Was never put on the ground. Where I grew up going to the ground was almost a death sentence. If going to the ground includes one man falling and the other stomping kicking etc or jumping on him and pounding till pulled off then better than 50%. If going there via intention then maybe 20%. Guys that could wrestle would try to take you down if fighting on grass. If on concrete or in allys etc with debris they would only go for takedowns if they were getting hit to much while standing. I would imagine that now that more people grapple going to the ground intentionally or trying to would be about 50% now.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Question for all those who are reading this thread:
What percentage of real fights (not organized events) that you’ve ever witnessed/engaged in DID NOT go to the ground? [/B]
In my experience of all the fights I have seen or heard about from students who have gotten into fights or from police, correctional officers and bouncers that I have spoken with (former students) all fights were finished by punchout. The guy that got punched was on the ground. I have never heard from these stories that someone took a fight to the ground to make a guy submit or to break his arm.
Even in domestic disputes it mostly involves hits to the head or stabbings or shootings. So the most useful practice from my point of view is in the hitting arts and weapons arts.
Ground fighting is fun too as that’s all I did when I was a kid.
Mostly attacks in the newspapers here are multiple opponent fights , stabbings or shooting. I think Wing Chun agumented with some Escrima/Arnis is good combo for that. Other Kung Fu styles also have their methods but they take much longer to learn. I am not a WT practitioner but I think WT has a reasonable mix of stuff that they do since they combine many kinds of fighting elements while staying within the Wing Chun framework.
If 90% of fights don’t end up on the ground that still doesn’t imply that the grapplers, Judo people, Aikido etc. are wasting their time. They have methods to deal with strikers and strikers have method to deal with grapplers.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Question for all those who are reading this thread:
What percentage of real fights (not organized events) that you’ve ever witnessed/engaged in DID NOT go to the ground? [/B]
Going back in time…
As a bouncer I never ended up on the ground, however most of the people I was dealing with ended up in some form of submission hold braced against an object (wall, table, floor, car, etc…). So 100% upright.
When the drunks or frat boys got to fight each other I would say it was close to 20% that stayed upright.
As a street fighter I can only recall one fight where I ended up on the ground, but that was after I took a baseball bat to the back so I don’t think it counts in this regard. I have seen many others go to the ground because one of them thought it was a good idea. I would say 50% stayed standing.
I grew up in Hawaii and being a beenpole howlie fought pretty much every day (back in the '70’s, anybody else remember “kill howlie day”?). I would say 90% of those fights went to the ground until about second grade, by that time I had enough training (formal and informal) to keep it from happening. Wresteling with someone twice your strength and weight while his buddies kick you can do amazing things for your determination to stay upright.
Originally posted by YongChun
[B]In my experience of all the fights I have seen or heard about from students who have gotten into fights or from police, correctional officers and bouncers that I have spoken with (former students) all fights were finished by punchout. The guy that got punched was on the ground. I have never heard from these stories that someone took a fight to the ground to make a guy submit or to break his arm.
Even in domestic disputes it mostly involves hits to the head or stabbings or shootings. So the most useful practice from my point of view is in the hitting arts and weapons arts.[/b]
there’s another side to that coin as well - if you are working security, you may not be allowed to hit them. I was allowed to restrain, but was not permitted to hit them.
Mostly attacks in the newspapers here are multiple opponent fights , stabbings or shooting.
in recent years (in my city) I’ve witnesses less multiple attacker situations and more one on one. In one situation I was involved in, a guy was mugging a paperboy. his friends were in the car, but they didn’t get out - they let it remain one on one. When I ran up, the guy jumped in the car and ran off - they coulda all jumped out and tried to stomp me, but didn’t.
On the news, I’ve heard about less stabbings as well, but there have been far more shootings.
If 90% of fights don’t end up on the ground that still doesn’t imply that the grapplers, Judo people, Aikido etc. are wasting their time. They have methods to deal with strikers and strikers have method to deal with grapplers.
From a self defense standpoint, if you do end up on the ground for some reason or another, who is most able to get up more efficiently, the grappler or the standup guy? also, what if you are on the ground in a multiple attacker situation? There are things I think of as a grappler that a striker may not. For example, a guy drags me down. He’s in my guard trying to punch me and his buddies are coming to help. Ideally, I want to sweep him and get up, but I don’t have time. What now? use the guy as a shield. pull him into my guard, wrapping him tight. Now, my back is against the ground, my head is tucked and he is covering the front of my body. I am now less likely to sustain damage to major organs as they are shielded. From there, pick your moment to continue the sweep and get up (that’s the hard part).
Another thing that people tend to forget is that in an altercation, the grappler wants to remain standing also. As you stated, our methods for dealing with a striker are different. (assuming I have no striking experience) I don’t want to strike. I will close on you, eating your space so that you can’t strike either. From there, throws and takedowns are the name of the game.
Re: Re: All fights end up on the ground?
Originally posted by Tydive
[B]SS,
As YellowPikachu pointed out, being aware of your situation will allow you to avoid going to the ground or even getting in the fight in the first place.[/b]
that’s not completely true. The majority of the guys I knew growing up that were involved in fights were wrestlers. If a grappler wants you on the ground, you don’t have much of a choice, unless you are proficient in takedown defenses - the result of cross training or “cross playing” as anerlich says.
Being confident in your skills will let you move in such a way that you do not look like a good victum to predators. Having positive energy will make negative people avoid you.
not really. There are several skilled people who are just plain shy. these people will always look like victims despite the fact that they are skilled.
If you don’t want people to be able to take you to the ground then you need to have very good footwork and be able to quickly break grips.
those are a help, but not all it takes.
One way to break grips is to break the fingers gripping you (Mr Pinky meets back of Mr Wrist is very effective). In my experience people can only grapple with you if you are unwilling to maim them.
it’s not that simple either. from more of a judoka’s grip, my hands are burined in your clothing and closed tight. you’ll likely be thrown before you break my grip and then break my finger.
from a bjj or wrestling perspective, I don’t chase limbs, so my digits aren’t wrapped around your wrist waiting for you to break them. I am over and underhooking - not using my hands at all, really - and can take you down without use of the hands.
Re: Re: Re: All fights end up on the ground?
that’s not completely true…
It’s just a good start. I am cross trained so maybe I am missing the point. From my perspective your job is to keep the person from being in a position to take you down in the first place.
those are a help, but not all it takes.
I agree, grapple defense is a pretty complex art and I don’t have the knowledge to fully describe it. I can do it fairly well but I still have memories of Kevin Osano tossing me around at will. Some people I just don’t stand a chance against no matter what I do.
from a bjj or wrestling perspective, I don’t chase limbs, so my digits aren’t wrapped around your wrist waiting for you to break them. I am over and underhooking - not using my hands at all, really - and can take you down without use of the hands.
My bet is you could down me in less time than it takes me to blink. If you lift my center it’s down we go. So we are back to mobility etc…
The finger example is pretty weak I guess, but I can break the arm or leg the attacker is hooking with etc… There is always some way to defend against an attack (even if that defense is to attack into the preperation). Bottom line is that if you don’t cross train and get realistic experience then you are pretty likely to get owned.
In other words, I agree with you. My answers were not complete, nor were they intended to be. Perhaps you could outline for us some of the things that make for good defense against a determined grappler.
edit: oh, and the SS in my earlier post was for Shadow Skill, but I like your answers