Technique names in Chinese please?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
41

Chinese terminology

It’s funny I had this same conversation with one of my students not to long ago. She was asking what a certain word meant from a Wing Chun site was, and to be honest I had never heard it used before, in fact I couldn’t tell you what the word was now if you asked me. I tend to teach in a mixed way, the terms I use are the basic terms, whether I know them or not (ex: I will say double frontal Gum sau and not seung jeung gum sau), I think that’s it? I told her that I teach with the words I was taught, and that even if I knew all the exact terminology (which seems to be slightly different from school to school) I don’t speak Cantonese and probably don’t say it exactly correct anyway. I gave her an example of a video on Wing Chun that I purchased several years ago, and the Chinese terms he used had a Texan accent (since he is from Texas) to it and I am sure this is similar to a Chinese speaking person would feel if he/she heard me use a Chinese term. I am sure that with my American accent it isn’t completely correct anyway…LOL. Though I am not opposed to learning the terminology. Though I might add, I do not feel knowing terminology or not makes you any better or worse than the next guy. :wink:

42

I am with the maestro

My Sifu was from Brazil and he doesn’t speak chinese at all, his sifu did but barely(he was from Brazil to) Now I can already here alot of people go ugh 3rd generation out of china he must suck. Well since we know of more people that are Brazilian that know this paticular style of shaolin kungfu would it then be Brazilian? Yes when Brazilians practice it, it is chinese when a chinese practices it and it is american when an american practices it. The chinese names to them are simple, to them Mabu means the same thing that horse stance means to us. You see alot of MA schools teaching students the language of the country the art came from but to me this is just for novelty purposes, ability in the art is more important

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43

At least I’m not alone in my views. :cool:

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

44

Where is the Yin and Yang?

You guys are so polar. You asked a question and I answered it. I gave another question and you change it.

No one here has said that you HAVE to learn the native language of your style in order for you to learn you style. What has been said is that choosing to ignore it is your choice and can slow or completely impede further progress. The orignal poster merely asked if anyone knew the names (which BTW, no one has given him). Then he gets a lecture on the “evils” of learning in a second language and how he should ignore the guy for even suggesting it.

Maestro Abel, I can’t tell if you are serious or just being argumentative. Why ever visit your Si-Gung? Respect is the first thing that comes to mind. What about going to see others within your Kung Fu family? Why even bother to be on this forum since you can get everything you ever need from your immediate teacher and fellow students?

To stumblefist, I don’t get your point? Just because he moves to Slovakia or Minneapolis it means he forgets his native tongue? And yes, if the native tongue of my lineage is other then english or chinese, I should learn that language too.

I’m not trying to stereo-type but are you saying because YOU are in the US everyone should learn to speak English to you? In Europe and Asia it is very common to be fluent in more then one language and familiar in many more.

As for learning kung fu vs. language, they are not mutually exclusive. You can learn the most by speaking the terms as you practice so it motivates both. For context, I’m 3rd gen American and grew up only speaking English. Heck, I used to tease the “FOBs” for not grasping English while they have moved to the US.

It’s only been in the last 8 years (well after college) when I’ve traveled that I’ve discovered that English is useful but you get much farther in relationships when you can communicate in other tongues. I also appreciate anyone who can speak english as a non-native language more.

I wish someone had really instilled that in me growing up. That’s why I get on this high horse. This is about kung fu. A skill earned from hard work.

45

Ethnic identity and natioanl pride, you can’t escape it.

Not knowing chinese can only impede my learning if the teacher is FOB as you say.

My si gung speaks english, I still don’t need chinese except to humor the trads out there. If your teacher can’t teach you what you need to know, the si gung won’t do much better. It’s still a student ego trip to “seek out the grand ultimate”. Like they are something special beyond their teacher. Chinese to a non speaking student is a novelty. If just more fun to say “yat, yee, sam” than “one two three”.

Why am I on this forum? Did I come on this forum to learn kung fu? That would be sad..

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

46

Language and ownership

“To stumblefist, I don’t get your point? Just because he moves to Slovakia or Minneapolis it means he forgets his native tongue? And yes, if the native tongue of my lineage is other then english or chinese, I should learn that language too.”
…
Yes, Hasayfu you have trouble seeing it.In the future the si-gung will not have MOVED to Slovakia or whatever, he will BE Sloviakian or whatever, like his father and his father’s father before him the more into the future we get.
You’re confusing language issues with assumptions of ownership. Ownership is changing with propagation into the world. BJJ was once JJJ.
I really don’t think it’s necessary to lose the chinese language/terminology. I hope it’s not. Just a question of how to use it or attitude. Some words have been adopted into English by usage. “Sifu” may be one of them. I don’t think it’s necessary to get “politically correct” about the terminology.
…
Anyway, not a great deal of language is needed to practice CMA. I have praciced in Asia in CMA society when my knowledge of chinese was at a very low level. It didn’t matter much. I prefer non-verbal teaching. Of course there were lectures, dicussions and fine points but that’s another story. I don’t want to go into a general theory of learning here.
Requiring students to learn all foreign terminology like Aikido societies do is practicing ownership. It is formalized into their tests.
…
Actually, i heard chinese on the mainland and taiwan refer to “HK Kungfu” and “American Kungfu”.
..
The original poster said he was satisfied with WWW.thousandbuddha.org to answer his questions. I can’t raise that server.
I found: www.martialarts.com/dictionary.wushu/indexst.htm
This dictionary is indexed by Pinyin with english translations. There is a search function for entering English but it is a little cumbersome. And still…I can’t find translation for “sidekick” either.

“A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell.”

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 10-06-01 at 10:31 AM.]

47

words are not the teaching of Martial Arts.

Aristotle said -“That which we learn, we learn by doing” -

This is most true of any martial arts training.

communication in kung fu training can be almost entirely tactile. the need for words is most definitely secondary to the tasks at hand when it comes to martial arts of any kind.

chinese teachers have no “deeper” knowledge of martial arts and haven’t for many many years.
Those who practice their art diligently and with Intent hold the knowledge.
If they give it to you, then you have it also and it is your duty to maintain the knowledge and honour your teacher and art by doing so.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links

48

Cool,

I’ve got the Lek on my side!

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

49

1000 buddha

I finally got through to www.thousandbudda.com
Nice information
…
Side kick is “Chua Tui”.
…
I don’t know what he meant as “turning kick”? …tornado kick?

“A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell.”

50

so much for deeper meaning

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

51

In favour of Hasayfu

When I went to Hong Kong, for the first time in 1980, to learn Hung Gar, my knowledge of Chinese (Cantonese) was limited to the words for the different techniques of Kung Fu. As my Sifu did not speak English this enabled me to communicate with him on the sets he was learning to me. It made learning a lot easier.

Later in learning the words for the different techniques there was a great deal of poetry involved. I would not miss this. And sometimes it’s hard to replace those words for dry technical terms, as sidekick, etc.

South Paw

52

With all respect, I’d like to pose another question or five. Did you really NEED to go to china to learn Hung Gar? And, did learning the term make your sidekick any better? What part of the poetry gave you a deeper insight to performing a sidekick? If so, then is your sidekick of better quality than your american counterparts?

Isn’t it, afterall, just a descriptive?

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

53

ok

the words for techs and forms are nice to know in a historical sense and because much of the information originally came from asia, it is good to acknowledge that these arts were so well developed within those cultures.

However, my experience with direct transmission of martial art from master to student is that when learner you do exactly what your teacher shows you to do and to accept and work on the corrections that your tecaher gives you.

after time the set is developed further by practice and correction or the refinement process.

master will teach student to fit the form to his body. the only difference in performance will come from body shape of the two, master and student but the essence and body mechanics and principles behind each movement should be the same.

after a time of this type of ingranation, applications are shown and these are practiced, some applications can be harmful if practiced on a partner willing or otherwise. the warning against this comes from the teacher without much “poetry” but more out of urgency for the student to know this.

and that can all be done up to the warning without uttering a single word.

also consider, exchanges and refinements in entire systems and styles were made frequently over time. sometimes from one person to another without strong understanding of each others language. But the body and it’s mechanical attributes are universal even though language is not.

sadly, the western paradigm is one of the causes of this breakdown in understanding of martial arts and it can be directly attributed to “language”.

but if you watch, then try to do, then do, you have learned. over time and with a lot of practice you will develop the art that has been taught to you.

If you do not do, and only postulate and think about it, your body will not remember How to do it. Even though you may be a fountain of information in a linguistic sense and be very convincing in regards to historical knowledge, it does not speak to developed skill through hard work over time. :wink:

or, what if the great master was mute? what then?

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links

54

To Sifu Abel:

  • Hung Gar was not available in Europe at that time, as far as I can recollect.
  • I already had a (back) side kick that made me vice champion all style in 1974 and European champion all style in 1975 (IBF).
    -“Looking in the Mirror” gave me a better insight in myself. Hope you know these techniques yourself. LOL.

South Paw

55

Stay on your island

To answer the question, did going to china improve my sidekick (or kung fu), directly no, indirectly yes.

Seems like a cop out answer but as i said before, only practice will give you better technique. Did I need to go to china to get the understanding I have now? No. In fact, going to China (Asia actually) showed me just how much my sifu really taught me.

On the otherhand, visiting and listening to the old stories and fine points made me see things that I had overlooked. Sure I may have eventually come back and found out these things without any verbal communications but having the communication probably saved me months if not years in heading down the right path.

This is especially true at the higher levels with internal aspects. Externally, it’s hard to see the difference. Words like toss vs. push and twist vs. spin. I know this because a si-hing who went that didn’t speak the language came back thinking one thing but I was taught the same thing with a different emphasis.

See we both had done that technique many times from our Sifu but Si-bak highlighted an aspect we overlooked. After the realization, we see that Sifu has taught us that but with the millions of other things we are learning, that one was misunderstood until we heard it from an outsider of the kwoon. (hope that makes sense)

But besides that, learning kung fu terms has opened the doors with many martial artists. It has also opened the ART to me far more then a myoptic view from personal kwoon could ever had.

If you never plan to exchange with martial artists outside of your school or languge, then the chinese terms will do very little for you. But remember, the if you decide to expand in this direction, your success will be determined by the effort you had put in thus far. Yuan Fen.

56

Island Universes

“If you never plan to exchange with martial artists outside of your school or languge, then the chinese terms will do very little for you. But remember, the if you decide to expand in this direction, your success will be determined by the effort you had put in thus far. Yuan Fen.”
…
Perhaps one can travel yet remain in their Island Universe. Perhaps one can exchange more by speaking less.

Kung Lek: Really well said!

“A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell.”

57

word sound power

“Perhaps one can travel yet remain in their Island Universe. Perhaps one can exchange more by speaking less.” - That’s a funny thing to say on an Internet forum. I like it.

Why wouldn’t you want to learn the Chinese Terms? It doesn’t take that much effort, does it? Not nearly as much as learning the technique itself. To me, learning the term is the easy part.

I can never accept the denial of knowledge, especially when is serves to bridge between different cultures.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

58

my point exactly

“Perhaps one can travel yet remain in their Island Universe.” So true. And this is good?

Kung Lek, we usually agree and in fact I’m not arguing because if you don’t choose to learn the language, it won’t lessen your art but this statement, "watch, then try to do, then do, you have learned. over time " What if what you “watch” is not what was shown? Over time you learn the wrong thing. Fantasy? Then why can’t you learn from videos? Sure you can get so far but there are things you will miss or worse, misunderstand. Of course language doesn’t make you the all powerful master but why throw out a valuable learning tool?

Language “can” open up your art. It’s like the many immigrants who come to the Americas but choose not to learn the native language. They can proceed with a satisfactory quality of life but what has been closed to them due to language barriers?

And as Gene said, it’s not that hard to learn. In the end, it’s up to you. I’m not trying to convert anyone but do want to give food for thought for those who may think about learning the language and wonder why.

59

I don’t think this is about the language itself anymore guys but more how people feel the need to go to the “motherland” to be good. I have never been to asia but when I practiced capoeria i went to brasil. While there I did notice I got better and I was only there 2 weeks. When I got back I thought to myself why were they better than us and why did I gain more in 2 weeks there than in a month here? The answer was really simple, competition among more skilled practitioners. If I am right people feel like they improve tons when they go to Shaolin for short periods, is it because the Chinese are superior at kungfu? Not really, it’s because that area has thousands of practitioners who are at a constant competition to be the best. Even those who don’t want to be the best(doubt there are any) are forced to work hard just to survive. If you have that enviorment here than you don’t really need to go to China to advance your skills, I would like to go but for the cultrual experience. I don’t have access to lessons in Chinese does that mean my Kungfu will never be any good? My sifu didn’t learn and he turned out great also his teacher trained in Taiwan for 3 years and learned lots of kungfu includeing light body training but could barely speak the language so it is not the top of my prioritys

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60

hasayfu, true, your point of “watching not what is being shown” is a good point.

but still, that can be corrected on the spot with hysical and tactile adjustment and generally in martial arts, that is exactly what is done with a student.

The student is most responsible for his/her learning in many ways.
Often people improve by going to the source because this verifies and validates what they may have alreday been considering. Also, it is further learning and further fortification of the endeavour.

So, yes, the names and the verbiage surrounding a martial style or system does indeed lend itself to teh intellectual understanding of an art.

On the other hand, language is not the only learning style that we have and seeing, doing take prominence more often than not.

how many excellent kung fu players have you met that can “do” it very well, but have said "I can’t remember whatr this is called, but it is this. At that point, they attach the common language to the technique and show you how to do it. making adjustments physically.

words can also help you as a practitioner remember sequences of sets you have been physically taught, ditto on the videos.

but still, “doing” is the most important aspect to learning a martial art, or anything. even speaking :smiley:

I am not against it, I have just observed a few people who can speak quite well about chinese martial arts but when it comes to demonstrating, it isn’t there. so I don’t attach a lot of imporatnace personally to the names of things in cases such as that.

Kung Fu is done differently from school to school, never mind country to country. THere are masters here in the west who are very well qualified in Kung Fu and training methodoligies of chinese martial arts.
Some of them do not speak the language well at all and still manage to teach those who do not speak their language.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links