[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1152090]The Tan Sau was not designed with the boxing hook in mind!
The tan sau connecting with the forearm or wrist was design for choy li fut or hung gar swinging blow for the inside. this blow after being intercepted with a bil gee to deflect the power is then dispersed downward with the tan sau![/QUOTE]
Tan sau wasn’t ‘designed for’ any one specific attack or style of fighter. This is more of a beginner’s technique level thinking. Tan sau is usually a secondary spreading action that another tool turns into. IMO, thinking Tan Sau is a block is missing the whole point of WCK’s idea of conceptual fighting.
Could you explain what a ‘bil jee’ is and how you intercept with one? This doesn’t make sense to me.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1152096]i agree…but what im stating is When WC was originally desgined…western boxing was not what they had in mind. The forms and shapes were originally developed to handle the fighting styles chinese dealt with![/QUOTE]
Yep, that’s the case. It also why WC has to evolve to deal with styles that weren’t known back then.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1152175]Tan sau wasn’t ‘designed for’ any one specific attack or style of fighter. This is more of a beginner’s technique level thinking. Tan sau is usually a secondary spreading action that another tool turns into. IMO, thinking Tan Sau is a block is missing the whole point of WCK’s idea of conceptual fighting.
Could you explain what a ‘bil jee’ is and how you intercept with one? This doesn’t make sense to me.[/QUOTE]
very good point…But looking at it from actually testing it out with different styles. You find certain punches not hooks of course manage quite well with the tan sau. Find someone who does hung gar or choy li fut…have them throw some punches at you first the way they would from their forms. An then try an spar with them using classic techniques from their system. Figure out what techniques work best with their hand techniques. The energies of each system is much different an alien to westernize fighting styles…But hey your right in this day in age using tan sau as intial blocking technique is only the beginning. I believe you meaning to say that intercepting first with lets say a bil sau could lead way to tan sau. In other words Bil Tan or Bong Tan. Tan is second action in the sequence which disperses the force of an attack. But in real fighting or sparring the opponent is going to be striking with the other hand right away so you dont always have the comfort of using your Tan depending on what style of fighting he is using! imho of course.
Bil Gee is thrusting fingers…Bil Sau is thrusting hand. I utilize bil sau to intercept hard hooks. Since bil sau is posistioning of the elbow is more supported by structure it is better for a inside deflection. if i want to deflect with Tan Sau i utilize it for the outside to turn force off or turn off his centerline. I typically wont use tan sau on the inner gate with round or hook punches. Only as a secondary technique inside the gate…outside or from the flank tan sau can be used alot easier because the vector of your opponents force is going forward and not so much weighing in on you from the outside collasping you!
[QUOTE=Graham H;1152144]How do you know that? You must be 200 years old to know that! Your idea of Tan Sau is completely wrong but as you can only see as far as the end of your nose you will deny it at every turn!
Better to say thats how YOU view Tan Sau not how IT is!
G[/QUOTE]
Okay thanks for your opinion!
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1152199]Yep, that’s the case. It also why WC has to evolve to deal with styles that weren’t known back then.[/QUOTE]
saying that boxing wasn’t around when wing chun was developed is mute. Everyone has two arms and two legs etc the system is designed to work whatever the opponent does
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1152248]saying that boxing wasn’t around when wing chun was developed is mute. Everyone has two arms and two legs etc the system is designed to work whatever the opponent does[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1152248]saying that boxing wasn’t around when wing chun was developed is mute. Everyone has two arms and two legs etc the system is designed to work whatever the opponent does[/QUOTE]
Well even if it was around back then…Western boxing back then was not well known in China…especially mainland…it wasnt the majority or widespread back then when WC was intially devised. Wing Chun has to evolved to be able to adapt to what ever New fighting style comes on the horizon. But today WC thats out there an its applications have Boxing in mind. It has adapted to Boxing…but in its inception boxing was not apart of the applications!!! One has to innovate the system to make it all inclusive!
The system is just a system…The system it self has limitations. You can innovate above and beyond the system. Your Gung Fu is not limited to just stand up fighting…its not limited to ground fighting…your system of gung fu is you!
Depending on your POV, western boxing of some sort has been around for more than 7000 years, Roman times, or the 16th century.
It’s a bit of a stretch to say that exposure to Western boxing was impossible around the times WC was allegedly developed. I can accept that Western Boxers were not the principal enemies the WC original gangstas were concerned with.
I have heard it said that CLF was developed to combat WC, rather than the reverse.
Dude if you want to get an idea of Philipp fighting outside of chi sau then go see him!
I always say that to people on here and as yet only one guy has gone! He has since left the William Cheung lineage and joined ours. Maybe the same would happen to you!
Maybe the reluctance of people to take up your advice has something to do with your winning communication style.
That and the fact that I’m in AUS , he’s in Germany, and his accomplishments at chi sao which is all that there is to see on vid, aren’t skills I see it being worth travelling the planet to learn when I can’t really see anything a lot better than what I’ve got to work with here as far as my MA aspirations are concerned.
You’re the one demanding video evidence from Phil that your guy doesn’t provide.
One guy does not a statistical sample make. And he’s entitled to one instance of poor judgement.
Maybe you could come and visit Rick Spain’s school. Only way to be sure …
I always say that to people on here
Yeah, you do. Over and over and over. Saying it loud, obnoxiously, and often don’t make it right.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1152248]saying that boxing wasn’t around when wing chun was developed is mute. Everyone has two arms and two legs etc the system is designed to work whatever the opponent does[/QUOTE]
Sadly that’s what WC people love to believe.
In the PBS video about Jack Johnson is was said that he was one of first to stick and move, slip and dodge. When he fought that way people talked trash about him because he didn’t stand in front of an opponent and slug it out. Boxing has evolved.
Maybe the reluctance of people to take up your advice has something to do with your winning communication style.
Whatever girlfriend!:rolleyes:
That and the fact that I’m in AUS , he’s in Germany, and his accomplishments at chi sao which is all that there is to see on vid, aren’t skills I see it being worth travelling the planet to learn when I can’t really see anything a lot better than what I’ve got to work with here as far as my MA aspirations are concerned.
Ahh that old chestnut. Well some of us are different. I had the same opinions as you so I got off my arse and travelled so I could be sure. As I have said a million times I was ready to give up Ving Tsun. PB was my last try and I went there thinking it will be just another guy full of hot air and stories of WSL. I was very very wrong!
You’re the one demanding video evidence from Phil that your guy doesn’t provide.
BS!
One guy does not a statistical sample make. And he’s entitled to one instance of poor judgement.
Speak English ffs!
Maybe you could come and visit Rick Spain’s school. Only way to be sure …
Rick Spain? Are you joking? I have no desire to travel anymore. I found what I was looking for. To tell you the truth I wouldn’t have even bothered with PB if he was any further away than he is from me. If I hadn’t have gone I would still be talking the same sh1t as most of the guys on this forum. You only have to trawl through the old VTAA and HK forums and you will see my posts are the same as what many people write about Ving Tsun especially on here.
Yeah, you do. Over and over and over. Saying it loud, obnoxiously, and often don’t make it right.
You don’t even know me so stop making stupid assumptions based on things you haven’t got a clue about!
YouTube is a rubbish medium to express Ving Tsun but Phil was going to show how he would use a Tan Sau in an uncontrolled enviroment so I want to see it as I don’t think it works.
Ahh that old chestnut. Well some of us are different. I had the same opinions as you so I got off my arse and travelled so I could be sure. As I have said a million times I was ready to give up Ving Tsun. PB was my last try and I went there thinking it will be just another guy full of hot air and stories of WSL. I was very very wrong!
You guys get a flight to Europe for 10 pound or something like that. AND its a few hours away. Have a look at an Atlas G, Australia is a long way…
Having said that, i havent seen anything that special from the PB clips to encourage a round the world trip
Speak English ffs!
He did… read english FFS
Rick Spain? Are you joking? I have no desire to travel anymore. I found what I was looking for. To tell you the truth I wouldn’t have even bothered with PB if he was any further away than he is from me. If I hadn’t have gone I would still be talking the same sh1t as most of the guys on this forum. You only have to trawl through the old VTAA and HK forums and you will see my posts are the same as what many people write about Ving Tsun especially on here.
Yeh, why would you want to learn WC from a guy with a legitimate fight record.
You don’t even know me so stop making stupid assumptions based on things you haven’t got a clue about!
Relax G… relax…
YouTube is a rubbish medium to express Ving Tsun but Phil was going to show how he would use a Tan Sau in an uncontrolled enviroment so I want to see it as I don’t think it works.
And im sure Phil will (as he always does) when he gets a chance… relax!!
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1152278]Sadly that’s what WC people love to believe. ;)[/QUOTE]
If your martial art has techniques that are designed to be used against this martial art or that martial art then you better develop your psychic ability or hope that your opponent will always be obliging enough to wear a nice T shirt telling you what style they do.
The Wing Chun I study deals with attacks and threats, lines of force and movement, not specific techniques. You choose your response based upon the line and height of the attack, and the range to the opponent - no other information is relevant until after contact is made. In a real situation (and by real I mean no gloves, no ref and no mat where anything goes) you don’t have time to find out what techique the opponent is throwing or what style he might or might not have studied. The Wing Chun shapes are designed to work against any angle or direction of strike, the only limitation is the practitioner’s ability to select the correct tool for the job and to use them.
Can only speak from personal experience but I’m a WC person and its worked for me everytime so far.
You guys get a flight to Europe for 10 pound or something like that. AND its a few hours away. Have a look at an Atlas G, Australia is a long way…
Having said that, i havent seen anything that special from the PB clips to encourage a round the world trip
I agree but like I said, don’t make judgments based on video clips is all!
He did… read english FFS
I did, I can, I shall…still nonsense!
Yeh, why would you want to learn WC from a guy with a legitimate fight record.
If legitimate fight records are what make good teachers then half of the planets MA instructors would be redundant.
Relax G… relax…
Deep breaths
And im sure Phil will (as he always does) when he gets a chance… relax!!
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1152304]If your martial art has techniques that are designed to be used against this martial art or that martial art then you better develop your psychic ability or hope that your opponent will always be obliging enough to wear a nice T shirt telling you what style they do.
The Wing Chun I study deals with attacks and threats, lines of force and movement, not specific techniques. You choose your response based upon the line and height of the attack, and the range to the opponent - no other information is relevant until after contact is made. In a real situation (and by real I mean no gloves, no ref and no mat where anything goes) you don’t have time to find out what techique the opponent is throwing or what style he might or might not have studied. The Wing Chun shapes are designed to work against any angle or direction of strike, the only limitation is the practitioner’s ability to select the correct tool for the job and to use them.
Can only speak from personal experience but I’m a WC person and its worked for me everytime so far.[/QUOTE]
Another good post Ian but I hope that you say “make contact” you mean engage an opponent and not about trying to make arms contact then stick to them like most WC fools!
I like David Petersons analogy that in chi sau we are trying to break contact not make contact. We are learning what do if obsticles are met so we can always find a clear and free line for the punching and NOT to go looking for the arms in order to make contact, stick to them and manipulate them.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1152308]I like David Petersons analogy that in chi sau we are trying to break contact not make contact. We are learning what do if obsticles are met so we can always find a clear and free line for the punching and NOT to go looking for the arms in order to make contact, stick to them and manipulate them.
GH[/QUOTE]
Ironic the common MIS-interpretation of chi-sao leads so many astray…
