what’s the difference between these two? I was telling a guy that taijutsu translates to “body arts” and was a name used interchangeable with jujutsu back in the day. It’s now associated with an aspect of ninjutsu training (this is true). He told me that aiki jujutsu is the exact same thing, and that through taijutsu practice, aiki will be developed, which I question.
So, what’s the difference between these two?
He also said that masaaki hatsumi and his schools “are the taco bell of ninpo”…
And just before the year ends, Sevenstar wins the Biggest Bucket of Worms Thread award
taco bell huh? i thot most everyone who knew anything about ninpo considered bujinkan one of the few or only, i guess ninpo skools left that teach anything at all worth learning. theres not much info about it tho so who knows. exactly what does ur friend study if not that?
its all in the name i guess. whats separates jujutsu from aiki-jujutsu would probably be a better question.
Re: taijutsu and aiki jujutsu
Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]what’s the difference between these two? I was telling a guy that taijutsu translates to “body arts” and was a name used interchangeable with jujutsu back in the day. It’s now associated with an aspect of ninjutsu training (this is true). He told me that aiki jujutsu is the exact same thing, and that through taijutsu practice, aiki will be developed, which I question.
So, what’s the difference between these two?
[/b]Historically taijutsu was the same as jujutsu and aikijutsu and aikijujutsu were different types of jujutsu I think. But I don’t know. In aiki we used to use taijutsu for the more solid throws, like tai otoshi, sumi otoshi and various koshiwaza, and in kendo they use it to mean tai-atemi, when you strike through with your whole body and slam the opponent, but it’s frowned upon in competition.
Don’t understand his statement ‘through taijutsu practice, aiki will be developed’. Does that mean that if you practice taijutsu your body will naturalluy get the principles of aikijutsu/aikido…blending and whatnot…?
He also said that masaaki hatsumi and his schools “are the taco bell of ninpo”…
Is that good?!
Re: Re: taijutsu and aiki jujutsu
Originally posted by Mat
in kendo they use it to mean tai-atemi, when you strike through with your whole body and slam the opponent, but it’s frowned upon in competition.
I didn’t know kendo had non-sword techniques.
Don’t understand his statement ‘through taijutsu practice, aiki will be developed’. Does that mean that if you practice taijutsu your body will naturalluy get the principles of aikijutsu/aikido…blending and whatnot…?
his only understanding of aiki is that it means “harmonizing spirit”. He’s saying that that will be developed through taijutsu practice, making it essentially the same as aiki jujutsu.
[/b]Is that good?! [/B]
No. He’s saying they are McSchools. Here’s a quote from an email he sent me:
“We’ve met Tanemura’s
students and we have more respect for them because them know half way what they are doing. Hatsumi schools are like the Tacobell of Ninpou.”
Originally posted by Water Dragon
And just before the year ends, Sevenstar wins the Biggest Bucket of Worms Thread award
I didn’t know kendo had non-sword techniques.
I’ve never really though of it as a non-sword technique…
It will usually get you disqualified in competition, as will just following through with your elbows.
his only understanding of aiki is that it means “harmonizing spirit”. He’s saying that that will be developed through taijutsu practice, making it essentially the same as aiki jujutsu.
Oh OK. Maybe that’s like aiki warm-ups (aiki-taisou/tai-sabaki) have sometimes been called taijutsu. So having someone coming in with a punch, and doing a tenkan or an irimi move to ‘blend’ with it, and practice your stances and moving from posture to posture with someone providing resistance.
Tacos still sound good to me!!
Originally posted by Mat
I’ve never really though of it as a non-sword technique…
what type of strike is if off of? Do? kote?
Tai-atemi/tai-atari/taijutsu
Men.
You can’t do it with do, because the position of your shinai means that it really is just a body-slam with no pretense of getting a solid sword strike in. As you always go past your opponent with do, you would have to ‘double-back’ and step in to them, which would be a bit obvious.
You could manage it with kote, but usually with kote, if it doesn’t come off, or if you don’t follow through with men, your shinai will be pointing upwards, which will lead to pushing each other off with the kote (gloves) (can’t remember the word for this). If your elbow position collapses in kote you can get a nice tai-atemi.
From men, as you are bringing your hand back naturally and following through naturally, keeping the forward pressure on, your kote and elbows naturally force your opponent’s head back, then you retract the arms a bit further for the whole shoulder barge thing. The footwork progresses through the same as for a normal strike.
My sensei said it’s a left over from kenjutsu, together with things like the little shin-kick/knee as you step in, and the stamp as you step out.I think these are called taijutsu too…
Some people naturally have a very robust kendo style, and esp if they have a stocky body to go with it, they can get tai-atemi in without getting spotted. If the judges deem it too blatant they will penalize you.
http://www.wayofthewinds.com/index.htm
anyone heard of this guy?
supposedly what I’ve trained in came from him.
Under his credentials, he lists this organization, “The World Head of Family Sokeship Council Hall of Fame”, which is a known bogus credentialing organization. You can get recognized by them as a “Master” by sending them a sum of money. Obviously a big red flag there.
It also looks like he designed his own system and named it “The Way of the Winds”, then tacked on “jujitsu, aiki-jujitsu, aikido, karate-do, shinobino-jitsu” as the roots of his system of ninjutsu. He must’ve done nothing but train martial arts for the last forty years to have mastered all of those systems, and by his own admission, what he’s doing isn’t pure ninjutsu.
Otherwise, who knows? If he was really a student of Donn Draegar, then he probably has trained very hard in the past. He might be really good as a result. Draegar was a high ranking judoka with black belts in a handful of japanese martial arts. Maybe your guy legitimatly wanted to improve ninjutsu as a whole by formulating his own system through hard work and discipline. It’s rare, but it happens.
He seems hardworking. There’s a photo of him back in the dojo in '63. There’s your forty years! 'Sides he’s in a hall of fame sponsored by Wesley Snipes… :rolleyes:
BTW Samurai Jack, there’s an aiki thread which may benefit from your insight over on ORA.
Originally posted by Samurai Jack
[B… and by his own admission, what he’s doing isn’t pure ninjutsu.
Otherwise, who knows? If he was really a student of Donn Draegar, then he probably has trained very hard in the past. He might be really good as a result. Draegar was a high ranking judoka with black belts in a handful of japanese martial arts. Maybe your guy legitimatly wanted to improve ninjutsu as a whole by formulating his own system through hard work and discipline. It’s rare, but it happens. [/B]
Most Nijitsu found out side of Japan is a blend, much of it comming from former military. The blend he mentioned is a common one in the U.S. The one I studied was less on Budo and more on servivalist stuff. I spent a good part of my first two years rock cilmbing and repelling. Maybe even 30% of all my training time, actually. It is more a matter of if you are more interested in learning from the individual. If you are a style snob, then no, this type of instructor is not for you. I had no such compuntion.
the hand to hand ‘taijitsu’ stuff that came from him is good basic fighting w/ a twist to the stealth side of things by the main goal being escape and evasion rather than sticking around and duking it out.
the knife work was good, imo and i got a small bit of sword as well.
{shrug}, I actually just sent him an email in an attempt at verifying that my teacher’s teacher did indeed study under him…we’ll see.
Oso, it sounds like you’re sceptical about your teacher’s claiming to have learned from him. Are there problems at your dojo right now?
mat, you mentioned that there is a difference between aiki jutsu and aiki jujutsu. What’s the difference?
SJ, I don’t train under the guy with the claim to Mr. Duncan anymore.
there were, however, several issues of honesty about what was what and where it came from.
in this instance there is only the word of my old teacher as to where the ninjitsu came from…no documentation or pics or anthing.
i’m not too worried about it…several things from that training are permanently in my skill base and they work well for me.
but, it would be nice to be able to legitimately say ‘it came from this guy’.
we’ll see if I get a reply from him or his sons.
…or if I get attacked by ninjas on the way to my guan one day.
Ronald Duncan
Just a little FYI. Ronald Duncan is not even remotely taken seriously by anyone in the Japanese martial arts community. He is a JOKE, and if Donn Draeger ever did more than just say hello to the guy I’d be surprised.
However, Ronald Duncan does put out some of the best videos you have ever seen. Seriously. Just invite over a few friends, have a few beers, and prepare to laugh yourself to death. His “look of death” on his aiki tape almost gave me a coronary the first time I saw it. Priceless! I’ve got a few hysterical photos of the guy on my computer, but I’m too technically challenged to put them up.
Regards,
Tom Christy
P.S. Anyone looking to get a little more info on “O Sensei” Ronald Duncan can get some great reading material over at E-Budo.
Originally posted by SevenStar
mat, you mentioned that there is a difference between aiki jutsu and aiki jujutsu. What’s the difference?
That one is mostly serious semantics nitpicking. I usually don’t differentiate because they mean different things to different people and if you posted the same thing over at aikiweb or somewhere you’d probably get a load of different answers. I only say it in case somebody pipes up accusing me of missing one out!
Daito-ryu, who claim to be one of the oldest koryu call themselves aikijujutsu I think. Ueshiba originally studied under daito-ryu and later called his style aikijutsu to distinguish it for aikijujutsu and to emphasize the aiki element (at that point Ueshiba-ryu aiki was still in it’s formative years, a lot more hardcore, and aiki arguably had a different meaning to its fluffy one now).
Kisshomaru’s Ueshiba’s ‘Spirit of Aikido’ book says that his dad was the first to use the word aikijutsu, I think, but I also think I’ve seen it in a description of the history of daito-ryu, although that history was written by an aikidoka.
Basically not a lot. I was saying it for insurance, in case somebody said ‘Ah, but what about (the other one)!?’. Unfortunately you asked me what about both…!! :D:rolleyes: