Taiji training with no push hands

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
41

[QUOTE=lunghushan;706631]Let me have a moment … BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yang family traditional … BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yang Jun teaches in my town … traditional? I’m not just rolling here, but totally breaking my gut.

I guess if your definition of traditional is not teaching outside of the family except for very minor things, and teaching to a lot of out of shape people without martial arts applications practice, then … that’s traditional. ???[/QUOTE]

Don’t know him, not thinking about knowing him, so it doesn’t matter to me. If this is what he’s doing there, that’s his problem. Just means that he’s not protecting the integrity of the family art. That’s sad.

But, my instructor is not his student, nor of his grandfather, and he teaches the martial applications. The first thing he said was that this is a martial art first and for health just comes as you progress and practice.

For my edification, tell me more of what goes on there that you have seen yourself (if you care to that is).

42

[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzar;706637]Don’t know him, not thinking about knowing him, so it doesn’t matter to me. If this is what he’s doing there, that’s his problem. Just means that he’s not protecting the integrity of the family art. That’s sad.

But, my instructor is not his student, nor of his grandfather, and he teaches the martial applications. The first thing he said was that this is a martial art first and for health just comes as you progress and practice.

For my edification, tell me more of what goes on there that you have seen yourself (if you care to that is).[/QUOTE]

I thought you said you studied with his grandfather’s brother. Anyway, evidently they do tell the students what some of the applications are, but they don’t practice them.

From what I was able to gather by talking to Mike, who said he and his wife lead the classes while Yang Jun is gone, they do form, and some push-hands. No application practice at all. Most people have a hard time with just the form.

43

Hi Nebuchadnezzar,

LOL!! Nice try!! Your futile attempts at diverting the conversation away from your own inappropriate comments by resorting to the Your Another logical fallacy are duly noted. It wont work!

You are not reading my comments very carefully or perhaps you are unskilled at understanding reasoned argument. You are the one who has rudely called participants here dreamers and liars while providing no evidence for your conclusion. Your attack is general to all the posters here; this is delusional arrogance. My comments are specific to you and address specific statements made by you; this is careful reasoning. You have made arbitrary statements that are your opinion only and are not based upon any discernable standard of measure. Mine use your own words as evidence drawing conclusions using reasoned argument!! Your comments provide no evidence therefore they have NO inherent value!! My comments may be disagreed with, but they are made using actual evidence this means they HAVE inherent value.

I am calling you a novice, a dreamer, delusional, and arrogant because you have presumed to impose your arbitrary standards upon those you do not know. You have no idea whether anyone here is an expert or not and you have no way of discerning who is and who is not. I have provided a reasoned argument to support my conclusion; you have provided nothing other than empty retorts. You have no established authority here; therefore your comments are worthless.

On there other hand, I have been well known on this BB for some years. I have some modicum of established authority on many of the topics with which I choose to participate. You have not established anything other than your ability to be rude! I have confidence the readers on this BB can distinguish between the value of your comments and the value of mine. That is not to imply that everyone agrees with my opinions. However, it is well known that I provide polite, reasoned argument for my opinions and I have a low tolerance for childish and rude behavior.

I am calling you to task because you are rude and for no other reason. For me this is not a discussion about Tai Chi principles, it is a discussion about your arrogant and rude behavior. If you think you can come into a discussion and call people you do not know liars and dreamers and dictate the way something is supposed to be taught without being challenged then you are delusional as well as rude and arrogant. You have the right to voice your opinions and I will defend your right to do so, but rude behavior requires a response and I have done so.

It is presumption based upon NO evidence that you have concluded I consider myself an expert. It is also irrelevant to the discussion. You have no way of discerning whether I am or not an expert, whether I consider myself an expert, and it I do consider myself an expert what field of study that might be. THAT IS THE POINT!!! You dont know what you are talking about and when you are challenged based upon your own words you are unable to defend yourself even adequately. All you do is use more empty comments.

I have compared your comments to a person walking into someone elses MA school and announcing that everyone there is a liar and/or a dreamer. You have not responded to this comparison. If you consider this form of behavior appropriate or justifiable then your arrogance is of a higher order than I had previously concluded. This type of behavior cannot go unchallenged. Individuals who behave in this manner have a tendency to continue behaving in such a boorish fashion until they learn the negative consequences are not worth the benefits received.

The authorities you have listed are experts TO YOU!!! You accept their expertise. I do not! To you they are experts, to me they are names of people that OTHER people CONSIDER experts. Just because an individual is not well known to the public does not negate any possibility of them being an expert and certainly your opinion of who is or isnt an expert carries no value so far. Standards of expertise are arbitrarily determined and accepted by popular social agreement. Popular social agreement of who is considered an expert may satisfy your requirement, but it does not satisfy mine! You may accept your authorities and experts as you like, that does not make them authorities or experts to everyone. Only to YOU and others who agree with you!!!

Your statements do imply quite a bit about yourself whether you are able to admit it or not. To call others you do not know liars and dreamers is foolish and arrogant and I have explained why I have come to that conclusion. You have NOT claimed to merely to be traditionally trained. You cannot even seem to recall your own statements so I will be happy to remind you:

My Sifu teaches everything as it was meant to be taught

I have already provided reasoned criticism of this comment; I see no need to repeat it at this time.

My comments have been based upon statements you have actually made that clearly demonstrate your ignorance and arrogance. I have provided reasoned argument to demonstrate how and why I have come to the conclusions I have. I have used your own comments as evidence. You have not answered my comments with reasoned rebuttal. So far you have demonstrated no ability to support any of your opinions with facts. You have no established authority. You have no apparent knowledge or concern for common courtesy or social etiquette. You are unable to perceive the clear arrogance of your own comments yet presume to project your arrogance onto others. This makes your opinions at the least questionable and at the most worthless.

Your attempts to divert taking responsibility for your erroneous and arrogant comments by suggesting any ego involvement on my part is unsubstantiated and a futile attempt at diversion. I have proposed a conclusion using the evidence of your own comments a conclusion that you have not responded too on the merit of the evidence I provided.

The fact you seem to be unable to respond to my conclusions based upon the merits of the evidence I have provided inclines one to believe the conclusions have merit!

44

[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzar;706627]To be specific, Traditional Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan.[/QUOTE]

what is “Traditional” Yang Style? Yang Lu Chan’s form? if so, is it pre- or post-Beijing version? or one of his son’s versions? or maybe Yang Cheng Fu’s version (which was actually the first generation that they referred to it as Yang style - Yang Lu Chan refered to it as Wu Dang TCC)? or is it the contemporary PRC version which has become the standard?

I personally don’t think that the term “traditional” can be applied to something that has changed pretty significantly over 5 or 6 generations…

as far as the training methods, do you guys do free sparring, including kicks, strikes and take-downs? because that’s how YLC used it, “traditionally”; he also fought with a spear - do you do that?

45

[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzar;705972]

…My Sifu teaches everything as it was meant to be taught, “Traditional”. My Sifu’s Sifu… teaches Tai Chi the way he was taught, “Traditional”. :smiley:

[/QUOTE]

Brings back happy memory… :slight_smile:

When I met my training brother Sifu V. Leow twenty odd years ago, I thought he was such a good fighter that I don’t need to learn from anyone else, because what he taught me was the ultimate and everything I need to know he could teach me.

Now when we talk about the old days we often laugh about how hopeless we were, all the silly methods we used, how little we knew and have a good laugh.

Nebuchadnezzar, do not assume that anyone can teach everything as it was meant to be taught. It is simply, not possible even from someone with the most honorable intention.

And a word on “Traditional”:

In the old days, students were NOT allowed to ask questions. Even if you missed something or cannot comprehend something, it is disrespectful to ask the teacher a question. You are not allowed to make notes, nor write anything down. There were many other restrictions as well making passing on knowledge a very difficult practice. You DON’T want your teacher to teach you the “traditional” way. If you do get a chance to go to PRC to seek knowledge you will soon find out all these traditions.

IMHO, however, there is nothing wrong in describing your Yang TCC “traditional” as long as you specify it is under whose tradition; whether it is YJH, YBH, YCF etc but not claiming it was taught the same way as they taught by them.

Cheers,
John

46

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;706654]Hi Nebuchadnezzar,

LOL!! Nice try!! Your futile attempts at diverting the conversation away from your own inappropriate comments by resorting to the “Your Another” logical fallacy are duly noted. It won’t work!

You are not reading my comments very carefully or perhaps you are unskilled at understanding reasoned argument. You are the one who has rudely called participants here dreamers and liars while providing no evidence for your conclusion. Your attack is general to all the posters here; this is delusional arrogance. My comments are specific to you and address specific statements made by you; this is careful reasoning. You have made arbitrary statements that are your opinion only and are not based upon any discernable standard of measure. Mine use your own words as evidence drawing conclusions using reasoned argument!! Your comments provide no evidence therefore they have NO inherent value!! My comments may be disagreed with, but they are made using actual evidence this means they HAVE inherent value.

I am calling you a novice, a dreamer, delusional, and arrogant because you have presumed to impose your arbitrary standards upon those you do not know. You have no idea whether anyone here is an expert or not and you have no way of discerning who is and who is not. I have provided a reasoned argument to support my conclusion; you have provided nothing other than empty retorts. You have no established authority here; therefore your comments are worthless.

On there other hand, I have been well known on this BB for some years. I have some modicum of established authority on many of the topics with which I choose to participate. You have not established anything other than your ability to be rude! I have confidence the readers on this BB can distinguish between the value of your comments and the value of mine. That is not to imply that everyone agrees with my opinions. However, it is well known that I provide polite, reasoned argument for my opinions and I have a low tolerance for childish and rude behavior.

I am calling you to task because you are rude and for no other reason. For me this is not a discussion about Tai Chi principles, it is a discussion about your arrogant and rude behavior. If you think you can come into a discussion and call people you do not know liars and dreamers and dictate the way something is “supposed” to be taught without being challenged then you are delusional as well as rude and arrogant. You have the right to voice your opinions and I will defend your right to do so, but rude behavior requires a response and I have done so.

It is presumption based upon NO evidence that you have concluded I consider myself an expert. It is also irrelevant to the discussion. You have no way of discerning whether I am or not an expert, whether I consider myself an expert, and it I do consider myself an expert what field of study that might be. THAT IS THE POINT!!! You don’t know what you are talking about and when you are challenged based upon your own words you are unable to defend yourself even adequately. All you do is use more empty comments.

I have compared your comments to a person walking into someone else’s MA school and announcing that everyone there is a liar and/or a dreamer. You have not responded to this comparison. If you consider this form of behavior appropriate or justifiable then your arrogance is of a higher order than I had previously concluded. This type of behavior cannot go unchallenged. Individuals who behave in this manner have a tendency to continue behaving in such a boorish fashion until they learn the negative consequences are not worth the benefits received.

The authorities you have listed are experts TO YOU!!! You accept their expertise. I do not! To you they are experts, to me they are names of people that OTHER people CONSIDER experts. Just because an individual is not well known to the public does not negate any possibility of them being an expert and certainly your opinion of who is or isn’t an expert carries no value so far. Standards of expertise are arbitrarily determined and accepted by popular social agreement. Popular social agreement of who is considered an expert may satisfy your requirement, but it does not satisfy mine! You may accept your authorities and experts as you like, that does not make them authorities or experts to everyone. Only to YOU and others who agree with you!!!

Your statements do imply quite a bit about yourself whether you are able to admit it or not. To call others you do not know liars and dreamers is foolish and arrogant and I have explained why I have come to that conclusion. You have NOT claimed to “merely to be traditionally trained”. You cannot even seem to recall your own statements so I will be happy to remind you:

I have already provided reasoned criticism of this comment; I see no need to repeat it at this time.

My comments have been based upon statements you have actually made that clearly demonstrate your ignorance and arrogance. I have provided reasoned argument to demonstrate how and why I have come to the conclusions I have. I have used your own comments as evidence. You have not answered my comments with reasoned rebuttal. So far you have demonstrated no ability to support any of your opinions with facts. You have no established authority. You have no apparent knowledge or concern for common courtesy or social etiquette. You are unable to perceive the clear arrogance of your own comments yet presume to project your arrogance onto others. This makes your opinions at the least questionable and at the most worthless.

Your attempts to divert taking responsibility for your erroneous and arrogant comments by suggesting any ego involvement on my part is unsubstantiated and a futile attempt at diversion. I have proposed a conclusion using the evidence of your own comments a conclusion that you have not responded too on the merit of the evidence I provided.

The fact you seem to be unable to respond to my conclusions based upon the merits of the evidence I have provided inclines one to believe the conclusions have merit![/QUOTE]

Oh well. To be brief, I haven’t decided to argue with you. No one has stepped forward to claim expertise in anything other than you.

Without quoting you, your spouting off the claims of your years on this board and "I have authority… " is a waste of the time of the others who frequent this site.

To spare them any more of your pontificating and attempts to find someone to bash at my expense, I won’t be helping you to feed your bruised ego (get over it) any further.

:cool:

47

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;706706]what is “Traditional” Yang Style? Yang Lu Chan’s form? if so, is it pre- or post-Beijing version? or one of his son’s versions? or maybe Yang Cheng Fu’s version (which was actually the first generation that they referred to it as Yang style - Yang Lu Chan refered to it as Wu Dang TCC)? or is it the contemporary PRC version which has become the standard?

I personally don’t think that the term “traditional” can be applied to something that has changed pretty significantly over 5 or 6 generations…

as far as the training methods, do you guys do free sparring, including kicks, strikes and take-downs? because that’s how YLC used it, “traditionally”; he also fought with a spear - do you do that?[/QUOTE]

Yang Cheng Fu. Push hands and applications at my level. Advanced students train weapons, etc.

48

[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;706761]Brings back happy memory… :slight_smile:

When I met my training brother Sifu V. Leow twenty odd years ago, I thought he was such a good fighter that I don’t need to learn from anyone else, because what he taught me was the ultimate and everything I need to know he could teach me.

Now when we talk about the old days we often laugh about how hopeless we were, all the silly methods we used, how little we knew and have a good laugh.

Nebuchadnezzar, do not assume that anyone can teach everything as it was meant to be taught. It is simply, not possible even from someone with the most honorable intention.

And a word on “Traditional”:

In the old days, students were NOT allowed to ask questions. Even if you missed something or cannot comprehend something, it is disrespectful to ask the teacher a question. You are not allowed to make notes, nor write anything down. There were many other restrictions as well making passing on knowledge a very difficult practice. You DON’T want your teacher to teach you the “traditional” way. If you do get a chance to go to PRC to seek knowledge you will soon find out all these traditions.

IMHO, however, there is nothing wrong in describing your Yang TCC “traditional” as long as you specify it is under whose tradition; whether it is YJH, YBH, YCF etc but not claiming it was taught the same way as they taught by them.

Cheers,
John[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the advice. It has been noted and will be taken as thoughtful advice. No one knows everything and I would be the last to claim I do. Again, thanks. :slight_smile:

49

[QUOTE=lunghushan;706647]I thought you said you studied with his grandfather’s brother. Anyway, evidently they do tell the students what some of the applications are, but they don’t practice them.

From what I was able to gather by talking to Mike, who said he and his wife lead the classes while Yang Jun is gone, they do form, and some push-hands. No application practice at all. Most people have a hard time with just the form.[/QUOTE]

Nope, I said, “…Specifically, Yang style through a sixth generation Yang stylist who’s instructor was trained by Yang Zhenguo (younger brother of Yang Zhenduo).”

I wish I could go to China for a while to train. Maybe I’ll visit one day after the kids get older. Thanks for the information. :slight_smile:

50

Hi Nebuchadnezzar,

It is wise for you to not participate in a conversation in which you cannot justify yourself by any other means than to project responsibility on to others. It would be proper for you to acknowledge the inappropriateness of your comments, but that appears unlikely to occur. You cannot justify your inappropriate comments and since you are unwilling to retract them or apologize for them I am willing to conclude our conversation for now.

I will leave you with one last thought:

Try taking the same comments you have made here and go tell them to your Sifu. Tell him he is a liar and a dreamer and see what kind of consequence you enjoy. Then tell his Sifu he is a liar and a dreamer. Then go to a meeting with some business associates and tell them they are all liars and dreamers. Then when you are done with that, go to your boss and tell him he is a liar and a dreamer. Go to your local Starbucks or favorite bar and tell everyone there they are all liars and dreamers. Have fun receiving similar consequences or worse than you have experienced here.

If you continue to make inappropriately comments and I am so inclined, I will be happy to respond to them once more.

51

hahaha I’m here to post my comments so i’m gonna try and not jump out of topic.:cool: and i must say this is the coolest cool smily.

1st of all, hand pushing is practice in many other styles not only in Wudangs training. It’s one of the ways to practice domination and controling the whole game. The push hands that only limited your upper body movement isn’t really a smart push hand. If you’re a Taiji student then maybe you should have Bagua’s footwork and Xin yi’s forms while you do it. Taiji isn’t very complete without the other two brother system. the 3 kind of make up for each other’s weakness.

2nd of all, I don’t know why most people keep thinking pushing hands is the main thing for Taiji… Taiji ultimately is a way of thinking. All the forms, footwork, strikes, breathing are developed movements to smoothen out the qi in the body. Taiji doesn’t really care if you blow punches or strike palms, it’s major thought behind is to bring things back to balance(or zero).

so, pushing hands will help you learn the whole system faster. Who ever is teaching you shouldn’t just should you single move’s. She/He should teach you the system and let you grow on it. :cool:

52

[QUOTE=explosiveturtle;707033]

Taiji ultimately is a way of thinking.

[/QUOTE]

Well said.

53

Sometimes it gets tiring hearing people talking about Tai Chi the way they do.
Health…Mentality…Reaching balance with the insdie you…and more…
First of all it is not called Tai Chi, but Tai Chi Chuan (even tho I read this is a recent name, in the origin was not called like that). It is a fighting Art!!!
Who made Tai Chi Chuan, worked hard to find proper forms to be able to fight and defende himself against other Martial Arts.
People try to make of this art a myth because of the slow movements and the use of Chi. But in the old days training in Tai Chi Chuan was not aimed to nothing else but being able to fight. It was not uncommon that students ended up in blood or with a broken bone. Grandmaster Yang himself was said to have killed one student during a training session. A student before being accepted as Student had to prove to be worthy fighting against the Master.
I don’t undertstand why when we talk about Shaolin kung fu, Hun Gar or even other internal Martial Arts we put as a main subject the fighting aspect of it, but when we come to Tai Chi Chuan it always comes down to a mystical way of seeing it.
Unfortunately my teachers don’t do it, but yes, Push Hands, application and practice of fighting are very important in Tai Chi Chuan as they are for any other Martial Art.
Ask to a student of Shaolin kung fu if just practicing his forms with no sparring is enough to master his Martial Art or not.

(sorry had to vent it LOL).

54

Greetings..

Sometimes it gets tiring hearing people talking about Tai Chi the way they do. Health…Mentality…Reaching balance with the insdie you…and more…
Well, perhaps for most of us the martial aspect of Taijiquan is a given, speaking it is simply redundant.. the other aspects certainly contribute to its Martial prowess.. there a few of us that spar full-on with Taiji skills.. don’t mistake the absense of your preferred “chatter” with the absense of a Martial foundation in Taiji..

Be well..

55

Hi charyuop,

Think of Tai Chi as being a contraction of Tai Chi Chuan similar to Pat being a contraction of Patrick. It is shortened for convenience not due to a sense of disrespect or unfamiliarity with the complete term.

Not everyone trains for the same reasons. Many people do train for fitness and/or other perceived benefits and not specifically for the self-defense aspects. I have been training in the MA for over 30. I have had a total of one physical encounter and I probably would have succeeded in that even had I never had any special training. On the other hand, I have applied the principles of Tai Chi and Tao almost daily. I still train regularly including strikes, kicks, applications, etc. I do not train because I have fear or expect a need to use my skills. I train because it is a Way of life!

P.S. We all have things that irritate us. It is good to ventilate to those with understanding ears when we feel the need. Thank you for sharing your thoughts

56

Sorry if I was not more clear on that point. I know Tai Chi is short for Tai Chi Chuan. With me pointing the whole I meant that too many people forget that Chuan is part of the name and Chuan is the word which specify that it is a martial art…take it as a poor form of sarcasm.
As I said my teachers don’t train me for the fighting aspect of it and it is ok, for now it is fine with me to train for the health aspect of and learn the more I can hoping in a future to find another teacher. But even tho I don’t train the the fighting part of it I don’t beat about the bush saying I do an healthy exercise or a form of Tao meditation that will bring me to immortality (mind, I am not saying that here someone said that). I know what I do is a Martial Art and I learn it with the knowledge of it.

I guess what really makes me mad is the huge amount of people who treat Tai Chi a class D Martial Art compared to the class A kung fu, karate, TKD and so on.

57

[QUOTE=charyuop;707290]

…even tho I don’t train the the fighting part of it I don’t beat about the bush saying I do an healthy exercise or a form of Tao meditation that will bring me to immortality (mind, I am not saying that here someone said that). I know what I do is a Martial Art and I learn it with the knowledge of it.

[/QUOTE]

Hello Charyuop,

For sure, IMOH Tai Chi is a fighting art first, and the health/spiritual benefits comes as a side effect of the training. But the way the power is generated is completely different from most arts (e.g. Shaolin), so do not be confused that the meditative side is an esoteric new age health exercise; it is for the sake of increasing fighting abilities with health benefits as a side dish.

Cheers,
John

58

:slight_smile: true, TaiJi Quan is really teh correct way to say it. Quan means fist… Tai which is means extreme Ji means pole. Originally Taiji quan was called Yin Yan Quan. Then there was time when people call it Lian Ji Quan… which means “two extreme poles”
I guess people likes to shorten names for friendly typing.

Many daoist don’t practice combat arts, but they do Taiji quan as exercises or meditating.

59

[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;707788]Hello Charyuop,
For sure, IMOH Tai Chi is a fighting art first, and the health/spiritual benefits comes as a side effect of the training. But the way the power is generated is completely different from most arts (e.g. Shaolin)…
Cheers,
John[/QUOTE]

Here we go, one more round:

Internal v Eaternal
Taijiquan v Shaolinquan
Soft v Hard
Transcendantal v Physical
Mind v Body
Unity v Duality
Blah Blah I v Blah Blah II.

Another 7,000 years and another 7triliion Victor Leows…

:smiley:

60

train football with no scrimage