[QUOTE=wudangmountain;703186]Hi all,
Question for all you taiji experts…
What are your feelings about taiji being taught without push hands training? The form and application of the forms are taught…so there is definitely a martial component…but no push hands. Am I missing out on an important principle in training?[/QUOTE]
I’m no expert and anyone on this site saying they are experts are one of the following
But yes, you are missing something.
[QUOTE=lunghushan;704480]It seems like this kindof depends upon your definition of applications. Like a while back I got a video of the 13 form. It had this taiji form, and then the guy showed the ‘applications’, and they were all off of push hands. Every application was a push-hand type throw.
???
So I walked around asking people, about their taiji applications. One conversation went like this:
Sifu: “Taiji applications are all push-hands.”
Me: “Then why does your form have a fist in it?”
Sifu: “There is no striking in taiji.”
Me: “Then why does your form have a fist in it?”
Sifu: “Taiji applications are all push-hands.”
Me; “Then why does your form have a fist in it? There must be striking if there if fist, right?”
Sifu: “The form is just an exercise. There are no striking techniques in taiji.”
That’s basically the B.S. you’ll find most everywhere. So if you say that taiji applications are all push-hands, well, then I guess, maybe yes then you will have to have push-hands.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like someone studied some other chinese marital art and learned the forms for videos and now calls themselves a Tai Chi instructor. Just my opinion. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=lunghushan;704662]Now why is that? Does everybody know something that I don’t about this place?
I can’t figure out what it is about this place. Even the Krav Maga is weak here.[/QUOTE]
It’s that ****able weather you have there. Who would want to do an outdoor Tai Chi seminar in the rain and gloom.
Bill Cosby said it perfectly back in the late 60s. When the sun comes out, you guys think it’s some evil spirit and run in fear. 
[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzar;705672]It’s that ****able weather you have there. Who would want to do an outdoor Tai Chi seminar in the rain and gloom.
Bill Cosby said it perfectly back in the late 60s. When the sun comes out, you guys think it’s some evil spirit and run in fear. :D[/QUOTE]
The sun is evil. Messed up skin and skin cancer.
You can always tell who is from California up here because their skin is so bad.
[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzar;705649]Sounds like someone studied some other chinese marital art and learned the forms for videos and now calls themselves a Tai Chi instructor. Just my opinion. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
No, seems to be pretty typical from what you get from Chinese teachers from the PRC these days.
They could just admit they don’t know what they’re talking about, but then they’d lose face. They always have to be superior.
Well, the teacher is not that bad even tho there are no push hands. He looks very closely to every detail and if necessary goes over and over to re explain them (hee hee, not to show off, but not necessary with me…I get at the first time 
).
The other day the teacher’s Master came by to test the old students, so I had the chance to talk to her. She teaches only to Conoco’s employees (wonder why, maybe coz paied by the company), but she comes by once in a while to test students of her certified students.
When class was over I stopped her on the door and we talked a little. She is a very nice lady and even tho in her 50’s I think she is also good looking. She said she teaches 8-24-48 forms, sword and after that Chen style. She knows also something called Tao Sword, but she doesn’t teach it, she told me by Chinese tradition it is something she will teach only to 2 people.
So I asked if she teaches push hands and she told me she stopped teaching it 10 years ago beacuse almost everybody couldn’t “feel” it. Then I asked her what she meant and she put her arm in front of my face and asked me to push against it. I have seen videos of push hands so I know how to position my wrist and started pushing on hers. She told me to push hard, but I was afraid of hurting her (I am much bigger than her) so I pushed gently. She told me “is that all you can do?” so I really pushe hard shifting the body weight, not with my arm. I told her I could push harder, but I would lose my balance and she answered me “that’s the point”. Then she pushed back and I tried to stop her and she told me to yield and not stop her. So we started a little bit of pushing and receiving trying to shifting my body from fron to back to receive her without losing my balance (even tho she didn’t mention, coz it was not a teaching session, but barely just showing me). She was telling me about the balance and how to try to make her lose hers (I guess, I was more paying attention to her arm LOL) and to end it she moved differently with her last push entering inside of my center and pushing me away as if she did no effort at all.
Hey, but I was so excited I didn’t sleep that night LOL it was my first and unfortunately last push hands.
Once I will have learnt the 8 and 24 form well I will go back to her and ask her again about teaching me push hands…who knows…
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[QUOTE=ProSpo;705935]
While enjoying your Game and Exhibiting your Skills, do take care that ‘you are safe’.
The best remidy I would like to suggest is use Protective Equipment of Top Quality. Presently prospoindia are the leaders. They have a ‘No Match Equipment’. They are supplying the best of Boxing Gloves, Best Heavy Bags, Best Focus Pads, Best Kicking Shields, Best Leg Pads, Best Aerobic Gloves, Best Chest Protectors, Best Head Gears, Best Abdominal Guards, Best Shin Pads, Best Shin & Instep, Best Kick Boxing Shoes, Best Bag Gloves, Best Punching Gloves, Best Hand Wraps.
Infact if we say that they are Number One in Boxing, Martial Arts & Kickboxing.
visit them at: www.prospoindia.com[/QUOTE]
what’s up with the advertising???
regarding taiji: i was told that if you want to be nice, no strikes, just push them away. you don’t want to be nice, those pushes become strikes! there are both open hand and fist strikes in the yang taiji long form
[QUOTE=charyuop;705917]…Hey, but I was so excited I didn’t sleep that night LOL it was my first and unfortunately last push hands.
Once I will have learnt the 8 and 24 form well I will go back to her and ask her again about teaching me push hands…who knows…[/QUOTE]
It’s not your last until she emphatically says, “NO”. If you can get the chance to prove to her that you’re worth the effort to teach, take it! :eek:
[QUOTE=ProSpo;705935]
While enjoying your Game and Exhibiting your Skills, do take care that ‘you are safe’.
The best remidy I would like to suggest is use Protective Equipment of Top Quality. Presently prospoindia are the leaders. They have a ‘No Match Equipment’. They are supplying the best of Boxing Gloves, Best Heavy Bags, Best Focus Pads, Best Kicking Shields, Best Leg Pads, Best Aerobic Gloves, Best Chest Protectors, Best Head Gears, Best Abdominal Guards, Best Shin Pads, Best Shin & Instep, Best Kick Boxing Shoes, Best Bag Gloves, Best Punching Gloves, Best Hand Wraps.
Infact if we say that they are Number One in Boxing, Martial Arts & Kickboxing.
visit them at: www.prospoindia.com[/QUOTE]
Are there no rules against advertising here? Where are the moderators?
[QUOTE=lunghushan;705700]No, seems to be pretty typical from what you get from Chinese teachers from the PRC these days.
They could just admit they don’t know what they’re talking about, but then they’d lose face. They always have to be superior.[/QUOTE]
Not so here in NYC. My Sifu teaches everything as it was meant to be taught, “Traditional”. My Sifu’s Sifu was here for two months from the Peoples Republic of China (PRC), and he teaches Tai Chi the way he was taught, “Traditional”.
[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzar;705645]I’m no expert and anyone on this site saying they are experts are one of the following
Since you are admittedly NO expert, you have no ability to determine who is or is not an expert.
Me thinks you are the dreamer and/or liar!!
[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;706043]Since you are admittedly NO expert, you have no ability to determine who is or is not an expert.
Me thinks you are the dreamer and/or liar!![/QUOTE]
I would appear that I’ve struck a nerve. Are you claiming to be an expert? :rolleyes:
Hi Nebuchadnezzar,
Expertise is relative. My 15 year old son is an expert in mathematics compared to the mathematical ability of my 10 year old son, but my 15 year old son is still a novice in relation to a professor of mathematics. I propose with my comment that you are in no position to determine who is an expert and who is not. It is the presumption and hypocrisy of your statement I am commenting on.
To claim out of hand who is an expert and who is not presumes more than you are capable of knowing. You have made an absolute statement concerning a characteristic of other people whom you do not know. This presumption demonstrates ignorance. You cannot make a fair judgment concerning people you do not know and therefore your statement is at best a guess and therefore invalid or at worst intended to derogate others which brings your purpose for making the comment in the first place into question!
In more blunt terms, you do not know what you are talking about! You have no way of knowing whether anyone here is an expert or not! Your statement was either foolish, intended to insult others, or not thoughtfully considered before it was made. It is merely your opinion nothing more. So far your opinion here is worthless and your manner of expressing it is questionable! You are relatively new to this BB and your opinion carries less weight than others who have been here awhile and have established relationships with other posters. One must establish authority in order for their comments to have value to general readers. Opening your participation in this discussion by derogating others is not very wise. It starts the conversation with a negative tone and only establishes your derisive attitude towards the other posters here. Think of it as you have walked into someone else’s MA school where people you do not know train and stated that no one in the class is an expert and they are dreamers and liars. This is a social faux pa that indicates either ignorance of social etiquette or intent to insult others and cause discord without reasonable cause which demonstrates to others your own sense of self-importance.
Your statement presumes you know what constitutes an expert, yet you have made no effort to define one other than to attempt to insult those who you THINK consider themselves experts. This is presumptuous. To date I do not recall anyone here stating they consider themselves an expert and even it they did your ability to discern the truth of their assertion is doubtful at this point! From the manner in which you chose to make your comments it is more likely you are projecting your own personal issues and standards onto others and that you presume expertise yourself. Your statement implies, “You guys aren’t experts, but I am.” Since your expertise to distinguish between expert and novice has not been demonstrated and your statement seeks to derogate others your comments carry little value.
To distinguish between an expert and a novice requires some level of expertise to begin with. You have claimed that no one here is an expert. This indicates you presume to be the judge of what constitutes an expert. Since you presume to make this judgment it indicates you also presume some level of expertise to make this judgment. We are thus returned to your implication, “You guys aren’t experts, but I am!” If you now deny that you presume expertise, it demonstrates your opinion of what constitutes an expert to be meaningless and shows your ignorance. If you do presume to define for us what constitutes an expert you once again demonstrate to all your own sense of self-importance, this shows your arrogance. In both cases your comments have no value.
[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzar;705972]Not so here in NYC. My Sifu teaches everything as it was meant to be taught, “Traditional”. My Sifu’s Sifu was here for two months from the Peoples Republic of China (PRC), and he teaches Tai Chi the way he was taught, “Traditional”. :D[/QUOTE]
define “traditional”…
[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzar;705972]Not so here in NYC. My Sifu teaches everything as it was meant to be taught, “Traditional”. My Sifu’s Sifu was here for two months from the Peoples Republic of China (PRC), and he teaches Tai Chi the way he was taught, “Traditional”. :D[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=cjurakpt;706375]define “traditional”…[/QUOTE]
I agree! I might add who is the arbiter of …as it was meant to be taught…?
What we have here is another novice with delusions of what is right, correct, proper, traditional, meant to be!!! Well my Sifu’s Sifu’s Sifu’s Sifu was a Shaolin monk. Actually, I think my Sifu’s Sifu’s Sifu was too! And my daddy can beat up your daddy. Big deal!!
No one cares about your delusions of what is traditional or how anything is “meant” to be taught. You do not know what you are talking about. There never has been a traditional way of teaching. “Traditional” implies a fixed method universally held to by all teachers and students at some time in the past. This is not the case and it has never been the case. There may be some cultural tendencies, but China has about a 5,000 year history! Which moment in time are you going to force on us to represent your sense or your Sifu’s sense or your Sifu’s Sifu’s sense of what is “Traditional”? What gives you, your Sifu, or his Sifu the right to dictate to anyone else what are the “Traditional” or proper teaching methods? Further, who dictated that “Traditional” methods are of greater benefit than any other method? Old ways are not necessarily better ways! In fact, generally speaking, modern methods are more beneficial than archaic methods in nearly every field of endeavor. I would agree not all, but you certainly have not established yourself as an authority with the wisdom or knowledge to determine what is and what isn’t for everyone else!
[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;706343]Hi Nebuchadnezzar,
Expertise is relative. My 15 year old son is an expert in mathematics compared to the mathematical ability of my 10 year old son, but my 15 year old son is still a novice in relation to a professor of mathematics. I propose with my comment that you are in no position to determine who is an expert and who is not. It is the presumption and hypocrisy of your statement I am commenting on.
To claim out of hand who is an expert and who is not presumes more than you are capable of knowing. You have made an absolute statement concerning a characteristic of other people whom you do not know. This presumption demonstrates ignorance. You cannot make a fair judgment concerning people you do not know and therefore your statement is at best a guess and therefore invalid or at worst intended to derogate others which brings your purpose for making the comment in the first place into question!
In more blunt terms, you do not know what you are talking about! You have no way of knowing whether anyone here is an expert or not! Your statement was either foolish, intended to insult others, or not thoughtfully considered before it was made. It is merely your opinion nothing more. So far your opinion here is worthless and your manner of expressing it is questionable! You are relatively new to this BB and your opinion carries less weight than others who have been here awhile and have established relationships with other posters. One must establish authority in order for their comments to have value to general readers. Opening your participation in this discussion by derogating others is not very wise. It starts the conversation with a negative tone and only establishes your derisive attitude towards the other posters here. Think of it as you have walked into someone elses MA school where people you do not know train and stated that no one in the class is an expert and they are dreamers and liars. This is a social faux pa that indicates either ignorance of social etiquette or intent to insult others and cause discord without reasonable cause which demonstrates to others your own sense of self-importance.
Your statement presumes you know what constitutes an expert, yet you have made no effort to define one other than to attempt to insult those who you THINK consider themselves experts. This is presumptuous. To date I do not recall anyone here stating they consider themselves an expert and even it they did your ability to discern the truth of their assertion is doubtful at this point! From the manner in which you chose to make your comments it is more likely you are projecting your own personal issues and standards onto others and that you presume expertise yourself. Your statement implies, You guys arent experts, but I am. Since your expertise to distinguish between expert and novice has not been demonstrated and your statement seeks to derogate others your comments carry little value.
To distinguish between an expert and a novice requires some level of expertise to begin with. You have claimed that no one here is an expert. This indicates you presume to be the judge of what constitutes an expert. Since you presume to make this judgment it indicates you also presume some level of expertise to make this judgment. We are thus returned to your implication, You guys arent experts, but I am! If you now deny that you presume expertise, it demonstrates your opinion of what constitutes an expert to be meaningless and shows your ignorance. If you do presume to define for us what constitutes an expert you once again demonstrate to all your own sense of self-importance, this shows your arrogance. In both cases your comments have no value.[/QUOTE]
No, I haven’t claimed any expertise. You however appear to be one who claims to be an expert of some sort.
If there are any here, please do say so. Does Chen Xiaowang post here? Does Yang Zhenguo post here? Sifu Yee of Hung Gar or Dan Inosanto post here? Does anyone on these levels post here?
Does your instructor post here?
I believe they are experts and those of us posting here are just students who someday hope to be experts. I myself will be satisfied with being proficiency.
Saying too much says alot (and you said alot). Your ego is bruised, get over it. 'Nuff said.
[QUOTE=cjurakpt;706375]define “traditional”…[/QUOTE]
To be specific, Traditional Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan.
[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;706412]I agree! I might add who is the arbiter of as it was meant to be taught?
What we have here is another novice with delusions of what is right, correct, proper, traditional, meant to be!!! Well my Sifus Sifus Sifus Sifu was a Shaolin monk. Actually, I think my Sifus Sifus Sifu was too! And my daddy can beat up your daddy. Big deal!!
No one cares about your delusions of what is traditional or how anything is meant to be taught. You do not know what you are talking about. There never has been a traditional way of teaching. Traditional implies a fixed method universally held to by all teachers and students at some time in the past. This is not the case and it has never been the case. There may be some cultural tendencies, but China has about a 5,000 year history! Which moment in time are you going to force on us to represent your sense or your Sifus sense or your Sifus Sifus sense of what is Traditional? What gives you, your Sifu, or his Sifu the right to dictate to anyone else what are the Traditional or proper teaching methods? Further, who dictated that Traditional methods are of greater benefit than any other method? Old ways are not necessarily better ways! In fact, generally speaking, modern methods are more beneficial than archaic methods in nearly every field of endeavor. I would agree not all, but you certainly have not established yourself as an authority with the wisdom or knowledge to determine what is and what isnt for everyone else![/QUOTE]
Again, you have too much to say, which in itself says alot.
I didn’t say or imply anything that you mention in your long winded run on paragraph. I don’t expect anyone here to conform to my view of things.
I’ve merely stated that I’m training traditionally. Specifically, Yang style through a sixth generation Yang stylist who’s instructor was trained by Yang Zhenguo (younger brother of Yang Zhenduo). I said nothing about the superiority of one method of training as opposed to another.
If you want to take it as anything more than that, I can’t and don’t wish to stop you. Calling me a novice and delusional speaks volumes about you. Clearly, you believe you are an expert and now your ego has been bruised so you lash out at anyone who would dare say anything that threatens your world.
As I said before, get over it. 'Nuff Said.
[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzar;706628]Again, you have too much to say, which in itself says alot.
I didn’t say or imply anything that you mention in your long winded run on paragraph. I don’t expect anyone here to conform to my view of things.
I’ve merely stated that I’m training traditionally. Specifically, Yang style through a sixth generation Yang stylist who’s instructor was trained by Yang Zhenguo (younger brother of Yang Zhenduo).
If you want to take it as anything more than that, I can’t and don’t wish to stop you. Calling me a novice and delusionally speaks volumes about you. 'Nuff Said.[/QUOTE]
Let me have a moment … BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yang family traditional … BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yang Jun teaches in my town … traditional? I’m not just rolling here, but totally breaking my gut.
I guess if your definition of traditional is not teaching outside of the family except for very minor things, and teaching to a lot of out of shape people without martial arts applications practice, then … that’s traditional. ???