Tell you what, why don’t you just direct your misguided animosity towards answering the guy’s questions. If you have a different take, then by all means state your case analytically and based on the content of the question.
You might want to start with why you think that men like Yang Lu Chan and company were wrong to include leaping kicks or anything else you’ve got problems with. Try that instead of calling people jokers and you might actually earn a little respect.
Kay? 
I have too much free time
“Kay?”
I’m game, here you state:
“Those kicks and leaps were put there by men of genius, if you can’t see the application then it’s surely your loss… I don’t think Yang Lu Chan was an impracticle man.”
I would never say Yang Lu Chan was wrong because I have no idea what he was training with the jumping kick. And yes I don’t see the application. I see this attitude on these internet boards quite often. Its as if the pinnacle of Tai Chi Chuan was with Yang Lu Chan and Chen Fake. There will be no one better and the art will never improve from theyre time.
“You have to remember that this is usually in response to a sweep where the opponent would be beneath your waist level and close to the ground, or you may be jumping due to a weapon sweeping at the legs. The period of time that you are in the air is so fast that the loss of root is moot and negligable.”
you would think the people who work the most against sweeps(Judo, Shui Chiao) would have figured out to simply jump out of the way.
onto heel kick application:
"1. Attacker kicks you with right leg and strikes with left fist. Application of Left Heel kick; "
this attack is straight out of a kung fu movie but some old timers like some of the Tibetan Crane guys I’ve heard did attack like this.
“As we bring our left knee upward we deflect attackers right kick out to our left having not yet extended the leg out. Our torso is turning left (not our waist) and deflecting the left punch with our left back palm as it comes up to fan out into the left heel kick posture.”
You know, I"ve been trying to do this, turn my torso left without moving my waist, its a pretty good stretch. But where is the “one part moves all parts move” from the classics here.
“At this point we use the opponents energy and lead him into a disadvantageous position by coiling our left hand over his fist, grasping it in any number of chin na techniques. Simultaneously we are pulling the attacker towards us, off balance as we extend our left heel kick directly outwards using a coiling centrifugal fajin directly into the attackers groin or stomach.”
If you can’t see how impractical grabbing someone’s fist out of the air and chi na’ing it is then there’s nothing I can say to convince you.
“So we are essentially in this one movement doing several things which may look impractical in the form but in reality are very useful. We are able to borrow our attackers energy and make more firm our root (should we need to) by securing the opponents hand as we pull them onto the outward bound heel kick to the vital areas. It’s a pretty vicious manouvre which needs to be see in real time to understand the principles involved. It is actually very practical and in close quarters, very handy and economical too.”
borrowing the opponent’s force is changing the direction he punches by pulling him into you? Firming your root is having control of the opponents hand? Yes I think kyour right, I would have to see it.
I would guess that a kick leaping forward might be good or it could be bad . If the opponent doesn’t see it coming it could be good to gain distance kicking him before he knows it. If he sees it coming he’ll probably step outta the way. If the opponent runs in attacking instead of using a shuffle stepping method , you can kick him coming in and maybe knock him down. I think you can maybe also kick the opponent backwards and down in close , and I think the idea is to push off your back leg for stability and then come down right on top your opponent. So I’m not sure about this, but I think it involves lifting the opponent up by pushing his elbow upwards and exposing his body for a kick first . Then once you have him up , you can kick pushing off your back leg, and then immediatley slam your structure downwards . Also I think if you kick him in the stomach while you have a hold of his hand ( or any time in close there is going to be opportunities for kicks, knees , sweeps) after you kick him , you want to step down into the opponents center with that same kicking leg putting you structure down on your opponent and taking his root to the ground away, maybe also applying chin na holds if he grabs you or gives you an opportunity . I’m no expert in taiji at all , but I’ve been doing different styles for different lengths, some for quite a few years. I’m only scratching the surface of taiji.
O.k I’m happy to dicuss this sanely so let me respond in like kind as best I can.
“Kay?”
I’m game, here you state:
I would never say Yang Lu Chan was wrong because I have no idea what he was training with the jumping kick.
Well there are plenty of students and masters since Yang Lu Chan who know what he was training in, they were taught by continual lineage, and thats where we have the various applications. Yes it’s possible there may be variations and alterations since then, but you simply adopt the techniques that you like best and apply not that which you find unworkable. I merely explained one such option, there are many others depending on the situation.
And yes I don’t see the application.
What do you want me to do about it?
I see this attitude on these internet boards quite often. Its as if the pinnacle of Tai Chi Chuan was with Yang Lu Chan and Chen Fake. There will be no one better and the art will never improve from theyre time.
I think they are a mile stone yes, and since Yang Lu Chan was the creator of his own system I think we can give credit where credit is due. I certainly don’t think no-one will be ever be better, who knows? The environment for maniacal study and application of Taiji as a fighting art in the modern age is simply not there like it used to be, so the chances of someone being as skilled in real combat like Yang are slimmer for sure, though not impossible.
you would think the people who work the most against sweeps(Judo, Shui Chiao) would have figured out to simply jump out of the way.
It was but one application. There may be circumstances when your back is against a wall or you are fighting in close quarters. In which case you cannot jump back or out of the way. Anything and everything is possible and applications are there to fit a variety of situations. If you see no use for it don’t use it.
I’ll get on with your next post now.
Hello again…
this attack is straight out of a kung fu movie but some old timers like some of the Tibetan Crane guys I’ve heard did attack like this.
It’s only one application and in many applications only one of two or more things may occur. The idea is to be in position to defend against multiple eventualities. Maybe you’ve watched too many kung fu movies, I don’t know.
You know, I"ve been trying to do this, turn my torso left without moving my waist, its a pretty good stretch. But where is the “one part moves all parts move” from the classics here.
I don’t know, you go find it. Taiji forms and postures are about opening up the joints and using centrifugal energy and jin. It works for me and the guys I train with, maybe you haven’t loosened up enough yet. God help you should you ever try Bagua!
If you can’t see how impractical grabbing someone’s fist out of the air and chi na’ing it is then there’s nothing I can say to convince you.
If you can’t apply Chin Na and the simplest of Taiji applications then there’s nothing I can say to convice you either.
borrowing the opponent’s force is changing the direction he punches by pulling him into you? Firming your root is having control of the opponents hand? Yes I think kyour right, I would have to see it.
If you are leading and turning your waist correctly yes you are borrowing his force. If you upset the opponents energy by snap pulling him towards you with right torso, left hip shake, then you will create a violent neck kink which is basic knock out. It’s clear you haven’t trained in these applications and you don’t seem open to understanding them either.
As to firming the root? Yes because you release your left heel kick ( remember timing is everything) at the same time as you trap the attackers hand and whip him forwards. You are essentially firmly rooted on the right leg and then coming down ontop of the opponent with your left.
If you don’t understand it or can’t get it to work then I suggest you do 1 of three things.
I can’t see the absurdity you claimed anywhere. This is my final comment.
Best to you and yours, Syd
“I can’t see the absurdity you claimed anywhere. This is my final comment.”
of course not your drowning in it
zzzzzzzzz… swat!
Just a thought, and for the record I have studied Yang, Chen and Wu.
If you want “original” tai ji, you didn’t need to “discover” the secret Yang Lu Chan form.
Study Chen, after all they taught Yang Lu Chan and their tradition is unbroken.
I don’t think it’s possible to have original Taiji, it’s a lovely idea but. I take your point regarding Chen Style but Yang’s art was different from Chen’s in the end anyway. I am planning to study Chen with Chen Xiaowangs second eldest son Chen Ying Jun here locally and I have contact with the son of Grandmaster Li Li Qun, Sifu Sam Li, who studied under Ma Yueh Liang, standard bearer of Wu Jian Quan in Shanghai for over 20 years. I am personally interested in learning from these three systems and deriving the best of the three arts, which I have an equal respect for.
Best, Syd
Syd,
unfortunately, what you describe is highly unlikely.
Without spending a good deal of time and energy with each system…and taking each system on its own terms, you will NOT be able to synthesize them together.
For example, if the style you know best is Chen style, when you dabble (and that is what you describe) with Wu and Yang style, what you do will end up having a distinctly Chen flavor. All you would walk away with is a taste of Wu and Yang but no true depth.
There ARE common principles that you can spend time on. With this foundation and a good teacher that understands the common principles as well as the “Special” places of their chosen style of Taijiquan, you can get the synthesis you talk about. However, finding this situation is not likely.
I would suggest that you choose one style to focus on for a good while first.
GLW,
I would be the first person to agree with all you have stated. I am not abandoning my Yang art, but rather I wish to look into learning the Wu set and understanding how this system differs from Yang.
In the old days there was no differentiation between Yang and Wu until Yang Cheng Fu embarrassed an official who then began promoting Wu style over Yang as a retaliation.
I believe that the essence and principles of Taiji are the same for every original system. There are differences in outer appearance but the intent is always the same. I’ll enjoy exploring Wu and later Chen and I doubt they will take away from my Yang forms one iota as I know the flavour of Yang all too well.
I think if you understand how to perform the forms of each style and to know and understand the inner intent, you’ll be fine. Why should it be any different from Shaolin Quan, where practitioners learn many different sets and animal forms which have their own intent and flavour? (Rhetorical)
Syd
Syd:
It had always been my understanding that there was a relatively close relationship between Wu Chien Chuan and Yang Cheng Fu. I can’t remember where the source was but they did a public demonstration, I believe, in Shanghai, together.
Here is a piece from the Wu Family site:
http://www.wustyle.com/en/about/
Founding Master Wu Chuan Yau studied under Master Yang Lu Chan, then under his son Master Yang Ban Hau. Master Wu’s disciples included Hsia Kong Pu, Wang Mao Chi, Kuo Song Ting, Chang Yuan Ting among others.
My great great grandfather Master Wu Chuan Yau (1834-1902) was the founder of Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan. He was a Manchurian member of the Imperial Guard in Beijing. He learned Tai Chi Chuan from the founder of Yang Style, Master Yang Lu-Chan. His area of specialization was neutralization. His eldest son, Master Wu Chien Chuan (1870-1942) was the second master of Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan. His influence on the development of the Wu Style was very significant. Master Wu Chien Chuan modified the forms taught to him by his father. He utilized a narrower circle and created many new ways to apply the form in a practical manner.
In 1924, Master Wu Chien Chuan, along with colleagues, Xi-Yiu Seng, Yang Shao Hou (Yang Shou Hou) and Yang Cheng Fu founded a famous martial arts school. This had an important effect in the practice of Tai Chi Chuan as it became available to the general public for the first time.
Master Wu Chien Chuan moved south to Shanghai in 1928. There he was appointed to the Board of Directors of the Shanghai Martial Arts Association. Subsequently, he became the supervisor of the Tai Chi Chuan section of the famous Ching Wu Sports Association. In 1935, my great grandfather established the first Wu’s Tai Chi Chuan Academy in Shanghai.
Maybe there was some fight but I have never heard any bad blood between the Wu style practitioners [Master Ma Yueh Liang ( Master Wu’s son-in-law) and Master Wu Ying Hua (Master Wu’s daughter)] and the Yang style practitioners (Fu Zhong Wen).
Does anyone know about this separation in more detail? Just curious.
G’day RAF,
It’s a pleasure to be talking to a direct family member of the Wu lineage, I’m sure you could reveal quite a wealth of information on the Wu set.
I read somewhere that when Yang Cheng Fu and Wu had their school together that an official was doing some push hands with Yang and expected that Yang would let him win and give him face. Yang did no such thing and made the official look weak.
As a result of this the official began learning Yang style from Wu and began promoting the Wu’s over Yang Cheng Fu.
Thats about the heart of what I’ve been privvy to.
Could you tell me anything about the Wu fast set?
Best regards, Syd
Sorry Syd but I am not a direct family member of the Wu style although I have done a seminar in it many years back with Wen Mei Yu and I do have a strong appreciation of Wang Peisheng.
However, the site I provided you with has tapes, history and is the Wu family school. You could direct your questions to them.
Good luck in your search and integration.
Hello again RAF,
Did I missunderstand this quote?
My great great grandfather Master Wu Chuan Yau (1834-1902) was the founder of Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan.
Is this a quote from the website or were you saying this? Forgive my mistaken assumption but I thought it was you saying this.
Very Best, Syd
Having met RAF, I’m pretty sure he’s not a direct decendent of Wu Chuan Yau RAF just got the wrong link 
http://www.wustyle.com/en/about/history.html
Thank you Brad. I cut and pasted and unintentionally created the impression that he was my grandfather. Unless, of course, tuscans are related to the Chinese or the Mongolian hordes did one of my Slovak/Hungarian ancestors I have no direct link or genetic tie to the Wu family..
Sorry Syd, although my future children (Liu) may have an indirect link to baji/Hebei, they won’t have a link to the Wu family. LOL.
Just wanted to give you a direct link to a place where you could probably get a pretty straight answer to the questions you ask concerning the Wu style.
Again, thanks Brad and stay off of Interstate 270.