Are they the same style?
If not how closely related are they?
I am going to be starting Wu Style Taijichuan at the end of the month , but after Crouching Tiger the name ‘Wudan’ just gives me the shivers.
Have you hugged your Black Dragon today?
Wudang - Wu Style
Wudang is a region of China and Wu Tai Chi is a family style. No relationship that I know of.
By the way, welcome to KFO!
Yeah, as mentioned above, Wu style Tai Chi Chuan is a family style of tai chi chuan - I am sure you will easily find the lineages on the web. As for Wu Dang Tai Chi Chuan - it was (is?) the tai chi chuan practiced at Wu Dang Shang - the mountain temples you saw in Crouching Tiger. Hsing I Chuan and Ba Gua are also practiced there.
There is however, just to confuse things more than they already are in Tai Chi, a tai chi school called Wu Dang Tai Chi Chuan - check out
and see for yourself.
Is this your first encounter with Tai Chi? Best of luck to you anyway 
And, of course, Dan Docherty adapted his Wudang taijiquan from the Wu style taught by his Hong Kong teacher . . .
Wujidude:
I am very curious about Dan Docherty’s form and training. He talks about a square frame of his taiji–which in baji, is the first stage and refers to getting the structure first and no power. Later circularity is added and then power. If you know anything more about his stuff, please give a good posting. I read his book and I think its best to leave the whole lineage/fighting blow-up aside.
Some of the Wu Tang students from GM Liu learned Wei hsao tang (8 step praying mantis master) Wu style and it is supposedly very different from what is seen out Shanghai and Beijing (although I can find some similar movements of my Yang’s taiji with that of Wang Pei Shang (I really like his forms. Saw one of his students play the short form in a tournament and I would love to learn it!).
Supposedly, from my teacher’s perspective, Master Wei’s Wu style is much more martial and performed in a very low stance
Dan Docherty
Sorry to butt in here, but hopefully I can add a bit of info about Dan Docherty. I studied under him for a few months last year, quite intensively, and then gave up when I saw how much hard work was required The square form he talks about is a teaching method devised by Wu Gong Yi when he first went to Hong Kong to teach: sometimes he would be teaching many people at a time, and breaking the form down into "do this, then do that, etc.. helped his instructors correct people’s postures. After the student has learned the form ‘square’ he then learns it ‘round’: I learnt about 1/3 of the form square then round, and I can say that there is a very big difference between the two. I assume Cheng Tin-hung adopted this method of teaching too. If you want to know anything else, I’ll try and answer as best I can.
Dingo:
Please, butt in! Anyone.
Does he emphasize stance training at all?
How about his guen, dao, jian and qiang training?
He is pretty disparaging about Chen stylsts and that was a bit disappointing.
I used to read his website but lost it. Sort of like some of his no BS attitude and suspect he can fight. How about his qi gong? Any good?
RAF: to answer you rquestions in order: No, as far as I could tell, he doesn’t emphasise zhan zhuang (that’s what you meant by stance training, right?). In fact, during the few months I was there, we never did any zhan zhuang at all. All I can say about his weapons training is: the weapon forms are done quite a bit faster than the hand form; I am unsure as to whether they do sword sparring and stuff, but I definitely saw them practicing ‘sticking spears’ once in class (looked pretty cool, as you can imagine :D) I think he is dismissive of Chen style because he has not had contact with any good Chen stylists; the UK Chen scene seems to be mostly filled with forms collectors, not fighters. Then again, his style claims Zhang Sanfeng as founder, so maybe he has to discount Chen style (i.e. it may all be political). He definitely can fight: you do applications from day one, and I know a guy who had only been going a few months who got to do free sparring at an intensive; I could hear him urging them to trap the opponent’s feet and stuff. Again, pretty cool One of his students (Neil Rosniak) competes in NHB competitions. His website is at www.taichichuan.co.uk or www.ptcci.freeserve.co.uk. When you say qigong, I take it you are talking about his 24-posture neigong set. I didn’t learn it, because I wasn’t there long enough, but again, I’m sure it works because I practiced applications against some of his students who had learnt it, and they were pretty tough. Anyway, take everything I say with a large pinch of salt, as I was only there for 4 months. Hope this helps
wudang ptcc
Hi Folks,
I just wanted to add somethings in this discussion.
I am an indoor student of sifu DD. Regarding the square form, it is nothing Dan himself invented. As said before they teach this way in Hong Kong as well in Malaysia, where i trained Wu style. As said before it was a good idea to divide the form in this way when teaching huge crowds of people.
Regarding stance training and qi gong, these concepts are incorporated in the nei kung training, which is taught after the student ‘bai shi’. We have ‘dao’, ‘jian’ and ‘qiang’. The forms are related to the tiger and the dragon, both physically and mentally. I’ve myself competed sucessfully against other internal weapon forms with the sabre and in handform. As well as in the hand form there is a lot of stress on understanding the movements and the applications with the weapons.
Have a good one!
Thanks for the replies. I really enjoyed his book and the lineage thing, what can anyone say anymore.
I was curious as to how they train for power but not smart enough to realize that no one is going to detail this on a public forum.
So again, thanks and, oh, does he have some tapes out? I saw a book on his style by Cameron??? but didn’t buy it and I thought his websited indicated tapes available.
Good luck in your training!
As far as I can remember, he has a CD-ROM with the short form on it, a video with the long form on it, and an applications video. To get hold of them and find out more, you could either e-mail chiron books (who carry his videos) at ronnie@taichiunion.com, or e-mail the administrator of his website, Lachlan Scott, at lachlan_scott@yahoo.com. As for the book by Ian Cameron, if it’s the one I’m thinking of, it’s probably not very useful unless you actually study Practical TCC. Hope I helped!
Wu style
There are 2 theorys on the Wu style of taijiquan.
1. The Wu family were Manchurian (outsiders) , so they were taught taijiquan incorrectly on purpose, breaking all the rules,bending at the waist, double weightedness,ect…
2. Master Wu had a crook hip.therefore doing all the forms wrong because of this, his students just copyed him, and therefore handed down as such.
-either way its not a good thing,
the wudang shan is where the internal arts might have started taijiquan/baguazhang/hsing-i chuan. but it was not called tajiquan, it was H’ao ch’uan “loose boxing”
Oh Please…
Gary, debating whether the Wus got the full transmission from the Yangs is fine, but double-weightedness and bending at the waist are just as much errors in Wu style as in any of the other styles. Please try and do a bit of asking around before you post stuff like that.
I dont believe Wu TCC bends at the waist, I think it more is tilted and the explanation I understand them doing this is to align the crown of the head and the bubbling well at the foot in a straight line while keeping the spine erect. As to the double weightedness I myself have limited understanding of the classics so I’m unsure of the correct interpretation of this but have heard 2 popular interpretations: 1. referring to weight on the foot
2. not using force on force
Dingo(or anyone please) I’m assuming your referring to the more common popular interpretation, maybe you can explain why double weightedness on the foot is so bad? Thank you in advance.
Gary’s theories
Theory number one has to be suspect a) on the grounds of common sense: how long would Yang Lu Chan have lasted teaching ineffectual martial arts to experienced soldiers in the Manchu Nobles Athletic Camp? and b) on the evidence that no-one differentiated between Yang and Wu style before the early 1900s.
Theory number two is flatly contradicted by the photographs of Wu Jianquan demonstrating the form (especially with regard to the kicks, diagonal flying and the downward posture) and by the traditions and detail of the teaching in the Wu lineage. Blind copying is the last thing that would have happened and one can also look at the weapons forms and many of the ancillary exercises and realise that Wu Jianquan (who was also an expert and athletic equestrian) did not pass on something shaped by a dodgy hip.
Wu’s Postures
I would echo BrassMonkey points. We also have to take into account that Wu style emphasizes on Shuai (throwing) more so than the other styles. Quite a few moves resemble the throws in Judo. The White Crane Spread Wing for example is bending forward in the form, yet in the application it is a hip throw. In Wu style’s case, IMHO, the form expresses vivid applications; therefore, the form is the style and style is the style. Also, Silfvsurfer is right about the Neigong is only taught after the formal “Bai Shi”. Not all the 24 would be taught at least the “Lao Sao Sui Dan” meditation won’t be. Just a thought.
Mantis108
Contraria Sunt Complementa
Brassmonkey, unfortunately, I’m no expert on taiji either (although I’m working hard to correct that :D). However, ‘double-weightedness’ does not refer to just having the same amount of weight in the two legs; I don’t know what you think of Mike Sigman, but he has said this repeatedly in the past (and using Chen Xiaowang as his source). This discussion at http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000002.html might help as well. Hope that helps.
wu style theories
Thank you ML! Why would they not differentiate between the two until 1900?
Those are just the theories I have heard, as far as mistakes go ,I have not seen any Wu stylist as good as even the worst Yang stylists. maybe I just came accross a few bad schools that do not portray the wu style correctly? Thanks for you input everyone...
kind Regards
Gary
Early Wu and Yang
Wu Jianquan and Yang Cheng-fu taught and practiced together at the Athletic Research Institute in Beijing in the early 1900s. Both men revised and developed their slow forms around that time after which point people started to distinguish between them. Compare early photographs of WJQ and YCF.
On another thread, I quoted a statement from Feng Zhiqiang where he said that the Wu style creator learned Zhaobao Taiji before he came up with his own. He doesn’t mention him learning Yang style, as is the usual statement. Any thoughts on that?
Everything I have seen on the Wu style shows a lean. Where are you guys looking to find upright players?
“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice