Tell me what advantages Chen style taijiquan or tai chi in general have over the wing chun fighting system
Andre Lashley
Uhhh, I think you mean how is it different.
You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom
Tai chi is an ancient Chinese martial art, It means Grand Ultimate Fist.It is most often referred to as a internal Martial art indicating that the emphasis is placed on strengthening the mind , circulating the chi, and relaxing the body so that is free to move. Beyond its Martial application however it is also a complete system of physics and philosophy, best characterized by the tai chi symbol known to Americans as the (yin yang circle) with in this symbol to semi circles of dark (yin) and white (yang) make a complete circle as they constantly merge into each other , Symbolizing the spirit of “moving harmonyâ€this harmony of motion describes the laws of yin and Yang which assert that in the phenomenal world both physical and energetic.All existence is a relationship between these two , for without left there can be no right, without night there is no day and Countless others.
In the system Yang represents all that is expressive,productive and strength oriented ,yin is receptive yielding an internal. In the martial aspect of tai chi, the relationship between the yielding force of yin and the unbending force of yang forms the core of the fighting technique. The yielding force is used to avoid or redirect opponents attack,while the unbending force is used to counter attack.this change from yielding to a bending is achieved in the form of Circle therefore the main pattern of tai chi is like many circles spiralling continuously without end. In application these principles led to force, which Master Ching Man Ching once described as replied 2,000 pounds with four ounces.
I hope this explains and answers your question!
I study Yang style rather than Chen, but before I came into the internal arts I was a wing chun student too. Like anyone who loves their system, I do think taiji has more depth than wing chun. Wing chun has almost immediate benefits in terms of self defense, but it also bottoms out more quickly once you get good. Taiji is a long term investment, but it pays greater returns (both in combat and health). The hardest thing to do is to find a good, martial teacher.
One thing that does puzzle me is the idea that taiji can be learnt as a “sideline” to another art. I can only imagine that it is taught and studied superficially. Incidentally, I don’t think wing chun mixes at all well with taiji or bagua (both being very circular). I had to work hard to overcome my wing chun habits to learn taiji properly.
Taichi
All styles of Tai chi have somewhat of a linear movement to them.
espeacial Chen style.
I think it would be best if I train in wingchun with some taichi because they do go together(read “Bruce Lee presents Intrenal Martial arts” any walmart store) then I will shift to tai chi chens tyle so this way i get the benifets and combat readys of wing chun with the growth of Tai chi.
my wingchun already has lots ofyeilding and controling in it .
besides I see tai hci as a super form of Jeet kune do. in Taoism. so cant there be tai chi (theory) in every style. I think so.
Andre Lashley
Taijiquan and Wing Chun
Taijiquan as we know it today isn’t all that ancient, having originated in Chen village only around 300 years ago, when Chen Wangting applied the theories to the martial arts he already knew.
I’ve studied Yang style since '91, Chen since '96, and studied Sun briefly, but had to stop due to the demands of my job, which is a shame because I enjoyed Sun greatly.
In taijiquan, especially the Chen style, you will find a far greater variety of technique than in Wing Chun (which is a fine system) as well as a greater emphasis on power generation and being able to emit spontaneous power in a greater number of ways. You will also likely find deeper qigong than in Wing Chun. It all really depends upon what you’re looking for.
If you’re looking for something that’s more Wing Chun-esque, you might want to look at Xingyiquan (Hsing I Chuan) as well. It’s more linear and aggressive than Taijiquan generally is, and like Wing Chun has a smaller number of techniques, having the five element fists as the main techniques and then some animal techniques beyond that.
- Build a man a fire and
he’ll be warm for a
night. Set a man on
fire and he’ll be warm
the rest of his life
they don’t go together very well
if you want to do either purely
Taiji is linear and circular btw - in equal measure. When compared to the pure linear WC it feels completely alien.
I train with a few WC guys (Samuel Kwok lineage) - one of them trains Taiji with me (6 years WC/1 year Yang Taiji).
He found the following:
1)his Chui Sau in Wing Chun became superior to that of the other students at his level because the Taiji made him softer than they were. He also developed a strong root that the others do not have.
2)his instructor was softer and more rooted than him despite only training WC - my friend had taken a short cut that made him better than his equivalents - but he worries that he missed an important period of ‘learning to be soft’ and ‘learning to root’ through WC practice.
3)WC favours a range that is alien to Taiji - Taiji lends itself to grappling, WC is more focussed on striking. He found that his Taiji couldn’t work because he was loathe to change ranges the way Taiji does. WC is kick/punch/elbow/get out - Taiji is kick/punch/elbow/shoulder/grapple. I’m not saying WC doesn’t do that - I’m saying that it doesn’t encourage it.
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Yielding - Taiji yielding is different to WC yielding.
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Taiji really helped with his WC by explaining concepts in a different way. He realised that the elbow placement for Tan Sau (I think - the palm up sort of cutting move) was to enable efficient energy transfer of an opponents force and to prevent his own structure from collapsing, to better root the energy. The analytical nature of Taiji has helped him understand these things better. He maintains that they come with time anyway, but that through understanding the principle in Taiji he was able to improve far faster.
For the first 6 months we were fine in pushing hands sparring (striking/kicks/breaking off if desired etc) - I was always better (because we were using Taiji style ‘open’ pushing hands) but he was getting through to me. However, the last 6 months have seen things go badly wrong for him - as my yielding and listening has improved he barely gets through now at all. He feels like he is fighting a net - wherever he applies energy he finds nothing but an attack from elsewhere.
I have got better whilst he is not progressing. We discussed it at length on Friday and realised that the problem is the Chui Sao in WC trains forward energy - when exercising with Taiji push hands this is something that can easily be taken advantage of (it is quite an obvious energy) but he can’t not do what is ingrained from his WC. We found that training the ‘wiggly gung’ that I criticised so heavily gave him the best results for months because he was unable to draw any similiarity to WC push hands.
It is a result of two different training methods that are close enough that they overlap and cause problems. I don’t believe one is better than the other - they just confuse each other.
Taiji can definitely be trained as a sideline to supplement another art - as long as you train it with that purpose in mind. I don’t think it mixes very well as an equal.
Last note - don’t limit yourself to a set Taiji style before you’ve looked for instruction in your area. Every style has great as well as awful instructors - find the best instructor you can (recommendations etc). Chen may be the most combat minded but if you train it with a charlatan it’ll be worthless.
Just my thoughts - and most definitely not an attack on WC.
“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”
that’s funny, I thought almost every movement in taiji is circular or in a arc. Even the hidden hand punch in chen style.
its in the classics
straight in the circular, circular in the straight
circular waist motion can lead to a straight or circular strike - brush knee twist step, circular waist motion, straight manifestation in the strike
that’s at the most basic level of understanding
“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”
Andre, you might find this article interesting . . .
from http://www.bawcsa.org/bio/KenNFZQ.html
"Feng Zhiqiang and Kenneth Chung
Feng Zhiqiang is the vice president of the Beijing Municipal Arts Association and president of the Beijing Municipal Chen-style Taijiquan Research Institute. He is also the head of Huaxia Martial Arts Club with the FESCO International Training Center.
Feng Zhiqiang was born in 1926 and is a well-known master of Chen-style Taijiquan. He was a student of Chen Fake, the 17th generation direct descendent of Chen-style Taijiquan. Chen Fake brought the Chen system to more general “modern” awareness in 1928. In 1928 he began to teach Old Style Number One and paochi or “Cannon Fist” to students in Beijing. Feng Zhi Qiang the person Chen Fa Ke would use in his personal two-man Taiji demonstrations. Feng Zhiqiang, therefore, is considered a “high hand” in the art of Chen Taiji. In his youth, Feng Zhiqiang studied Tongbei and Liu He Xingyiquan from Han Xiaofeng and Hu Yaozhen, respectively. Through intensive training with Chen Fake, Feng Zhiqiang mastered the grappling, throwing, and shaking-strength skills of Chen-style Taijiquan.
He is also a coauthor (along with Feng Dabiao and Chen Xiaowang) of one of the few English books on Chen Taiji. This book is entitled Chen Style Taijiquan, published by Hai Feng in 1984.
Chen Changxing, Chen Fake’s grandfather is the Chen who taught the Chen system to Yang Lu Chan, the subsequent founder of Yang Taiji. Yang Lu Chan, who was very proficient, became very prominent in the elevation of Taiji within Chinese culture. Chen Zhaoxu, Xiaowang’s father, was understood to be, of course, a prominent student of Chen Fake as well.
Chen Xiaowang is the 19th generation standard bearer for Chen Taiji.
The Beijing Wu Shu group came to San Francisco in 1985 to have an exhibition. The head coach of the group was Wu Bin, and the leader was Mr. Chiang. Most of the 28 members of the team were in their 20’s. Feng Zhiqiang, also a member of the team, was in his late 50’s.
Y. C. Wong introduced Ken to Feng Zhiqiang in his 8th floor, Grand Avenue hotel room. Their conversation ranged from Martial Arts to Kung Fu to sensitivity. At this point, Feng Zhiqiang invited everyone in the room to touch his hands. Present were the following martial artists: Ben Der, Y.C. Wong, Eddie Chong, Kenneth Chung, possibly Sidney Wong, and some other SF martial artists.
Prior to this meeting, Ken had been diligently trying to “abandon” the power he had developed prior to his “benching” by Leung Sheung. Ken had, to this point, spent nine to 10 years getting “soft.” When Ken’s turn came, Ken touched Feng Zhiqiang, but finding no openings in Feng Zhiqiang’s area, subsequently, would not want to go in. Feng Zhiqiang invited Ken to use more energy. Ken politely refused. Feng Zhiqiang continued to invite Ken in, and Ken continued to refuse. Finally, Feng Zhiqiang said that he couldn’t show Ken what he wanted to show him unless he gave Feng Zhiqiang more energy. Ken felt at this point that he was at the limit of his “soft” energy. Feng Zhiqiang continued to encourage him to use more power, so Ken, did as Feng Zhiqiang requested.
Before he knew it, Ken said his hands were on the floor to his left. Feng Zhiqiang did this move two or three times to Ken. Then Feng Zhiqiang said he wanted to show Ken something different. Feng Zhiqiang then landed Ken on the bed two or three times. Ken said that he wasn’t “tossed” but more like “placed.” That is, he had the distinct impression that Feng Zhiqiang was “throwing” him in such a controlled fashion that Ken would land particularly when he landed on the bed.
One has to be at a certain proficiency level in their own style and have an open mind to really appreciate this functional placement. Ken had met many taiji people by this time, including Chen styles, and had yet to find compatible hands. Feng Zhiqiang stood out without question, opening Ken’s eyes. He provided the right and perfect feeling that led Ken to experience more of the Chen style. Ken took him as a mentor in Martial Art.
To have a chance to touch Feng Zhiqiang’s hands in this manner was heaven to Ken. After the meeting, Ken was totally enlightened and couldn’t close his eyes for the next two nights. They met again three days later. Ken found out more about this master. However, Ken was not trying to learn Chen’s Taiji. He just wanted to be close to the master and share his experience and insight within Martial art.
It’s no surprise that some people mistook Ken to be dying for Taiji. Only those at a higher level of Martial Art understand – to capture the essence of an art takes a life time search. Ken spent his time in Wing Chun and that enhanced his ability to admire a wonderful Chen’s style master like Feng Zhiqiang.
Aside: to remind some monkeys out there – don’t count on your being a natural to pick this up easily, even if you are in Chen style. It took a visit by Chen Xiaowang for some Chen style monkeys to discover how beautiful their style’s “internal energy” can be. There are quite a few monkeys in different countries who happen to be self-claimed masters, playing at being an authority figure way too often. They met with Chen Xiaowang briefly in Australia in 1995. Ken, a Wing Chun stylist, acknowledged this beauty and internal energy some ten years ago with Feng Zhiqiang in San Francisco, and with Chen Xiaowang in Xian, China.
That’s what happened in the first meeting between Ken and Feng Zhiqiang. Later, one of Ken’s “students” was with Feng Zhiqiang, and asked Feng Zhiqiang what he thought about this upstart’s hands. Now, such a question coming from a teacher’s student would have been the height of disrespect. The relationship between Ken and this “student,” this student’s age, and the student’s relationship with Feng Zhiqiang, presented a unique opportunity. This allowed for the question to be asked without disrespect and without divulging the student’s relationship to Ken.
Feng Zhiqiang’s comment about Ken was, “He has very good listening energy.” This was such a wonderful comment from Feng Zhiqiang and meant a tremendous amount to Ken. This compliment dwarfed all the good comments and flattering for all those past years from different martial artists, some of which are from his own clan in Wing Chun. Now, Ken knew he was and still is on the right path."
Why is Tai Chi better then Wing Chun?
- Chicks dig the graceful movements of Tai Chi. Not the ruthless efficiency of Wing Chun.
- Tai Chi practice is better for health.
- Few people would even think to question the fighting ability of a Tai Chi practicioner.
- Wing Chun forms are so ugly, only an engineer could love them.
- Tai Chi people aren’t inundated with lame “yeah, I know that Bruce Lee stuff too” comments.
And I could go on, you know… 
“… only an engineer could love them.”
LMAO!
Seriously, internal connection is grad school compared to the middle-school technique level of Wing-Chun. As useful as trapping is, its nothing compared to the power of mid-range grappling.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
Hmmm
Seeking the curve wqithin the straight and the straight within the curve is true, but Taiji is not meant to be linear, energy seems to circulate in its movements.
Bruce was hardly an internalist, in fact I would have to declare that he wasn’t. How anyone can say that Taiji is a higher form of Jeet Kune do, obviously they haven’t a clue about Taiji.
taiji is meant to be
both linear and circular - at a variety of levels. Bagua is circular, Hsing-I is linear, Taiji has a mixture of both.
waist turns, straight punch.
issue straight but with a circular motion (diagonal flying is best example of this - your body is travelling in a straight line whilst rotating as well)
it all comes down to definition - how would you define straight and circular in the context of MA? Is it jab vs hook?
“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”
>Bagua is circular, Hsing-I is linear, Taiji has
>a mixture of both.
this really depends on what you are looking – eg Mike Patterson said that in fact every movement in Hsing-I is circular, the linear movements are just the obvious ones.
If you go deeper than your description is not valid anymore.
Guandi
Taijiquan has been described as the spear within the shield, while Xingyiquan is the shield within the spear. This refers to the relative qualities of straightness and roundness in the respective styles.
If you ever get a chance to see Xinyi Liuhequan (10 animal Xingyi) you will never mistake it for linear.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
argh!
it’s bad enough explaining that taiji has both without getting into the other sisters.
BROAD definitions follow:
Bagua = circular
Hsing-I = linear
Taiji = bit of both
I don’t believe that this is the same as ‘straight in the circle’
whether that is purely physical, or discusses the fight philosophy or whatever - broad generalisations can be picked apart. But the above are the accepted brackets when talking generally.
I know a little about Taiji - I know nothing about Hsing-I or Bagua - I was regurgitating the standard descriptions found in most internal books I’ve read as well as information on various web sites.
As a related question - why do people act like being linear is inferior to being circular? I don’t feel that calling Hsing-I linear in anyway denigrates the style.
As far as I can see it, to generate power you have to rotate the waist - what you do with that power is what defines linear/circular.
Guandi - you haven’t really demonstrated your statement with evidence of any sort. I can describe various layers of finding the straight in the circle in Taiji. Position, movement, philosophy - i’ll elucidate later as I’m knackered at the moment.
“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”
Internal connection is grad school compared to the middle-school technique level of Wing-Chun.
Wing Chun has internal connection. WC players are so humble that they don’t like to talk about it, and so clever that they never reveal it to outsiders.
I’ve already said too much. Excuse me.
Humble Wing-Chun players, nice thought.
They are surely clever, perhaps they can hide it from themselves. The only internal Wing-Chun practitioners that I have met were also highly skilled in Taiji, Xingyi or Bagua. I’ve never talked to a pure Wing-Chun stylist who didn’t claim to be internally connected, but I’ve never touched one who could demonstrate it.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
Thank you guys for caming
Thanks alot I really appericate it. As as I get a car. I well take monthly and weekly drives to Tai chi schools (chen style if possible but I wont mine training with others.) I will stick if Tai chi chaun since you put thens that way Kaitain. but I still think wing chuns theories can serve some purpose in my combat.
thanks.
Andre Lashley