Hhmmm
As stated with the development of an internal art, yes, one’s Wing Chun may become internalised. But it is not an internal art.
What is a “pure Wing Chun stylist”? Someone who, when exposed to theories and training methods of other arts, plugs their ears and closes their eyes? In that case, you may be right. I’ve never met a pure WC stylist myself.
Are you a pure Tai Chi stylist?
The initial connection established by WC is: my hand to your jaw, and your ass to the ground. True, but this does not denote a lack of sophistication. The 2-3 year WC guy has the luxury of refining their practice, while their 2-3 year Tai Chi opponent is busy recovering from their injuries.
Wing Chun = Safety First!
Q.E.D. 
P.S. “Internal art” is just a marketing scheme to lure in the hippies.
Yes I’ve met plenty of people for whom Wing-Chun is their art, nothing else they’ve done is as sophisticated, so I don’t see anything of any other art in there.
To think that you can’t use three years of Taiji may be true if you look at the students in Grandma’s class at the community centre. I’d put anyone with three years of connection against someone with only three years of technique. No doubt that it is harder to grasp connection three years, and its a lot harder to maintain the kind of dedication to the work that is needed, but I know plenty of examples.
A classmate of mine is in Japan right now. With two years of Chen style he was able to control a 28 year Shorinji kenpo master (the kenpo guy tried to show him a lock and couldn’t apply it, and when the two-year Taiji student touched him he put him on the ground). When this same two-year student met a 40 year Judo practitioner he was able to neutralize every technique the master used.
Am I a pure stylist? No, but I also don’t need to go outside any one of my styles to make them more complete. I can use Chen without resorting to Xinyi or Bagua, or any combination of the above. The Beng and sticking quality in my Bagua surely benefits from my Chen training, my ability to change in my Chen surely benefits from my Xinyi, the angling in my Xinyi owes something to my Bagua. Yet they are all based on the same set of principles and the techniques that result from these priciples are radically different.
If my ass were so easily put to the ground I would be more circumspect than I am.
Your theory ignores the facts of midrange grappling. You presume that the weapon that you launch across the midrange will land on the target you choose beforehand. This may not be true. You had best be connected to yourself and to the planet before attempting this against someone with more than technical skill. I have no doubt that you have lots of hands-on training with very good trapping and bridging skills, it may be that you have never had the opportunity to touch someone with real internal power.
To be stuck at technique level is to be forced to do a lot of math when coming “off the line.” When that kind of method is met with whole body sticking, not just clever hands, the flaws in the calculations can be revealed. “No plan of battle survives initial contact with enemy.”
Low technique level may beat low stick level, but high technique level does not beat high stick level. Don’t argue for partial skills.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
I’d put anyone with three years of connection against someone with only three years of technique.
As would I. But
Wing Chun = Techniques
Tai Chi = Connection
is completely false.
Am I a pure stylist? No, but I also don’t need to go outside any one of my styles to make them more complete. … they are all based on the same set of principles and the techniques that result from these priciples are radically different.
And these same principles are the source of Wing Chun.
“As long as people have two arms and two legs, there will only be one martial art.” A famous Wing Chun student said that, guess who?
Your theory ignores the facts of midrange grappling. You presume that the weapon that you launch across the midrange will land on the target you choose beforehand.
That is not my theory, I assure you. Nor is it traditional Wing Chun theory.
Nice Quote, But…
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> “As long as people have two arms and two legs, there will only be one martial art.” A famous Wing Chun student said that, guess who? [/quote]
Which is a lovely quote that just ain’t true. But it’s a nice thought.
- Build a man a fire and
he’ll be warm for a
night. Set a man on
fire and he’ll be warm
the rest of his life
The theory I was referring to was that your hand would be on my jaw. A specific theory not a general one.
While the same principles may be behind Wing-Chun and the Big-Three internals, nothing I’ve seen in Wing-Chun practice actually develops the same way as the others. As I said, I have seen very high level Wing-Chun, scary stuff no doubt, but the people displaying these skills were just using it to show a context, as they had moved past Wing-Chun into internal styles.
Do you know of Yeung Fuk from Seattle or his student Dave Harris? Master Yeung is a reknown practitioner of Red Boat Wing-Chun. He told me that while Wing-Chun is ok for hitting people, you have to train neigong for power and complete skill. He can demonstate the highest levels of the art, yet he was almost dismissive of the method. That made me look at Wing-Chun with a more critical eye.
For two years I shared a club with a Wing-Chun teacher. We had about the same amount of time in martial arts. We touched and talked theory a lot.
My current teacher Eric Tuttle can also do amazing things with Wing-Chun alone, he trained it hard for almost 20 years, yet he is the source that I derived the technique/connection contrast from. He describes it as being clever like a fox, but the internals are powerful like a tiger.
Where is the spiral jing? Where is the power stretch? Where is the change in the structure? Where is the open/close of the tissue? Where is the training of the 6 harmonies? How do you dig power out of your root? Where is the Song and Beng?
Your can call my conclusions completely false, but they are not mine alone and they are not based on ignorance, they are based on research.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
A little history on Kevin’s reference to Fook Yeung:
Mr. Yeung, now in his eighties, was a good friend of the late Bruce Lee’s father. When Lee came to the United States after leaving Hong Kong and Yip Man, he trained for a while with Mr. Yeung, definitely polishing his skills. Lee, remember, had not completed his Wing Chun training under Yip Man.
Mr. Yeung used to perform martial arts roles with a Chinese opera company. As such, he had to study a number of arts in some depth. In addition to Wing Chun, he studied baguazhang and taijiquan, and possibly other arts. Although he still plays around with martial arts, most of his practice now is dedicated to the Omei qigong forms.
Omei??
Or should it be E-Mei as in E-Mei Mountain Qigong systems? Dedveloped on E-Mei mountain monasteries?
Thanks again wujidude. I wanted to avoid the name dropping of Lee Junfan, but its a good bet that the Red Boat approach had a strong influence on the direction Bruce Lee took in his martial arts.
The pronunciation of the characters for “beautiful eyebrow” is Emei in the Beijing dialect, but Omei in Sichuan dialect. Omeishan, the mountain, is in Sichuan province.
I actually had the good fortune to spend some time training Omei Qigong on Omei mountain with my Qigong teachers. Has anyone else ever seen a Qigong sword form?
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
For me, I prefer Wing Chun.
I’m Southern Chinese with a fast little jerky body. Though I can pull off Chen’s circular reeling jing, I’m much more at home with Wing Chun’s straightaway linear motions.
Yet if I were long and lanky like many Northern Chinese (e.g. Chen Xiaowang and Ren Guanyi, the two Chen authentic lineage guys out there), I’m sure that I’d prefer to USE my length to my advantage in Chen Taijiquan.
Only Two
Are you mentioning Chen Xiaowang and Ren as the only two, or just as two examples?
Merciless is Mercy.
It’s Nelson, B.C., but pronounced “Neslon” in the Canadian dialect . . .
. . . aye? Just kidding. Man I would love to visit the Emei/Omei Shan area. Sichuan is my favorite Chinese regional cuisine, too. You’re fortunate, Kevin.
I actually haven’t met Yeung Feuk personally. I just met a couple of his students when I was in Seattle, and got that tidbit about Lee Jun Fan (Bruce Lee). Lee absorbed a lot of influences into his Jeet Kune Do, and I would guess both martial and philosophical influences from his (relatively brief) time with Yeung Feuk. Just my speculation, though.
"And these same principles are the source of Wing Chun. "
:rolleyes: um…NO!!! :rolleyes:
“Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong”-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com
The theory I was referring to was that your hand would be on my jaw. A specific theory not a general one.
I was actually referring to the relative pragmatism of Wing Chun, not to a specific “Kevin vs. Chris” match.
um…NO!!!
So name these supposed principles which are not manifested, in any way, in any lineage of Wing Chun.
Of course, after I provide the counter-examples, you will say “that isn’t pure and true Wing Chun”, or “that is X, not Wing Chun”, or some other such nonsense which actually proves my earlier point.
Tai Chi stole WC sticking and corrupted it.
Hsing-I stole the WC punch and degraded it.
Bagua stole the WC turn and perverted it.
This is all crazy talk.
ok..ill waste some of my time…
"Tai Chi stole WC sticking and corrupted it.
Hsing-I stole the WC punch and degraded it.
Bagua stole the WC turn and perverted it.
This is all crazy talk. "
You must have tried all these arts for many years to be so wise as to how WC is better in these aspects?
I have yet to meet a WC guy who could stick better than TC, and could even outpunch taiji, and bagua! In fact the last WC guy I trained was very good by any standard( I respect WC as a whole, its better than many arts), he had 11 years in WC, but in one training session I taught him how to improve his punch , and his power doubled, to bad he moved oversees (USAF), he was a fast learner, so I wonder how after 11 yrs of WC he didnt learn how to punch?
Also he was easily beaten in a freindly sparring match even when I put one hand behind my back, sounds to me the principles you speak of you do not even understand, or at least even know how to apply? But Ive only met a dozen or so WC guys so I cannot generalize everyone.
“So name these supposed principles which are not manifested, in any way, in any lineage of Wing Chun.”
1.Fa-jing
2 An-jing
3Chan siu jing
4 see list of jings on cyberkwoon, youll find many more.
5. A good root
6 Using adverse Qi
7 Using Qi in general
8 Stucture (six harmonies, etc..)
Im sure others here could can name some more..but I have not spent long in WC, so perhaps SOME internal principles are presant in a small way? But it has not been seen in any of the advanced practictioners I have met and touched hands with.
“Of course, after I provide the counter-examples, you will say “that isn’t pure and true Wing Chun”, or “that is X, not Wing Chun”, or some other such nonsense which actually proves my earlier point.”
Accually not having trained extensivley in WC I would have no place to say what is and what is not true WC, I can only base my opinion on what I have seen/heard/felt. So if you can provide information to the contrary great!! Ill take your word for it, but I wont consider it fact until I accually meet a WC guy who can manifest some degree of skill using internal concepts from WC. As to nonsense- your first quote I posted on this response is complete nonsense.
But for a non-internal art, or “internal/external hybrid” its a very good art, in fact I recommend it to students who move if they cannot find a good internal teacher.
Gary
“Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong”-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com
Gary
Gary :““So name these supposed principles which are not manifested, in any way, in any lineage of Wing Chun.”
1.Fa-jing
2 An-jing
3Chan siu jing
4 see list of jings on cyberkwoon, youll find many more.
5. A good root
6 Using adverse Qi
7 Using Qi in general
8 Stucture (six harmonies, etc..)”
Well… I was going to get all pissed off, but I forgot my sifu also teaches me tai chi and baugwa(spelling?) along with wing chun. So maybe all those internal aspects of my wing chun come from tai chi and baugwa training we do…
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Internal arts are boring and slow, wing chun is fast and exciting. Oh wait, I do taijiquan, reverse that! No wait, reverse it once more then double it and subtract the first statement from the second reversed statement. Then divide that by kenpo and add aikido, and then set it all equal to BJJ and solve for Judo.
Where is Newton when you need one!?
- Nexus
hmmm… You have insulted my honor?
Now I must send my buddy rolls (aka the “Grand ultimate fist”) after you. Yes, that’s right, I said rolls. I believe he has become quite feared among the taichi community after his recent victory at the community center. And any one who underestimates the power rolls will be in for a rude-awakening. MHAhahahahahaHAhahhhhaahahhaahaaaaaaaaaaa
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[i]"Tai Chi stole WC sticking and corrupted it.
Hsing-I stole the WC punch and degraded it.
Bagua stole the WC turn and perverted it.
This is all crazy talk. "
You must have tried all these arts for many years to be so wise as to how WC is better in these aspects?[/i]
You miss the point. I will try to provide a simpler explanation:
My great-grandmother was walking and talking before you were even born. Why did you steal her moves?
…Also he was easily beaten in a freindly sparring match even when I put one hand behind my back, sounds to me the principles you speak of you do not even understand, or at least even know how to apply? But Ive only met a dozen or so WC guys so I cannot generalize everyone.
I didn’t repeat the story of the Tai Chi teachers whom I beat with one hand behind MY back, because it is irrelevant.
I know that, if I want to comprehend the essence of Tai Chi, I must look at the world’s BEST exponents of this art, not the dilettantes. Then, I can speak the truth with confidence, and without relying on buzzwords like “internal/external” and “jing”.
lol
Your ignorance is comical,
"My great-grandmother was walking and talking before you were even born. Why did you steal her moves? "
Your attempt at an analogy is terribly inadequate, and it holds no relevance to the previous points you attempted to make, the failed points you have now abandoned for your vague comments become even more apparent.
Saying something like Jing is a "buzzword" only makes clear that you think of it as only a buzzword, which proves the point of WC not being an internal art. I was hoping you could provide some insight into something here, but obviously not. Thanks anyway......
Gary
PS : You did imply that WC has a better understanding of sticking, punching, and the “WC turn” I dont think its too much to ask for details of your exp. in each of these arts since you offer such a degrading comparison?
“Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong”-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com