Originally posted by Andy62
I agree weights are the preferred method of training for top athletes in most sports
Then WTF is the point trying to convince everyone to give up traditional weight training and try all of these other lame methods? Ever stop to think that there’s a reason weight training is “the preferred method”?
If you don’t lift heavy you’re not going to develop strength. That’s the only way it works. You can lift 4lb dumbells all day and it won’t increase your max in any lift at all.
Wiry Strength
I totally agree-the only way to get maximum size and strength is by training with weights. At the same time the guy who can lift the most weight isn’t always the guy who is best in a fight. It seems to me that for a fighter a desired quality is “wiry strength.”
We have all seen it where a guy who isn’t that big or the best lifter may in fact be the toughest. It seems that some of the best ways to develop wiry strength are with strands, isometrics, calsithenics and resistance exercises. Kettlebells are also a good way to develop this qualtity. For some people these alternate types of exercise are a good way to supplement weights and for others [although admittedly a minority] they are used as a stand alone system . Andy
define “wiry strength,” because everyone i’ve heard mention it described it in that vague fashion in which people describe how they want to be “tone.”
wiry is typically a body type. like sevenstar’s ability to grow simply by looking at something heavy and ironfist’s lack of ability to grow at all, a wiry body type is something people are born with. typically, they can’t leave it. they have a difficult time putting on mass, yet can still be very strong. how did they get this body type? ask their parents which genes they donated.
no one is saying that such exercises are a bad thing. we’re just saying that for the vast majority of strength goals, weights are the best method of achievement. keep in mind that your body doesn’t know the difference between different flavors of resistance. it just knows it’s being stressed, and it adapts.
I agree although there ,but there do seem to be some differences. I think strands develop a different muscle quality than weights as they give more of an isokenetic type of resistance. There is no doubt that genetics are king and none of us are going to get beyond our genetic limits.
I think that about sums it up, folks!
One more time:
http://www.sherdog.com/interviews/renzogracie_01/gracie.htm
Renzo says he lifts weights… When I trained with Renzo, he said he lifts weights. Have you ever spoken with Renzo or regularly trained at a school run by a Blackbelt from Brazil? If you have talked with him, then you’d know you stand on dubious ground at best for insisiting that Renzo is reponsible for everything in an english-language book. If you’ve ever trained at a Brazilian BB BJJ academy, then you know that BWE circuits and different partner carries are regularly used for conditioning especially in tournament prep classes. You know what that means? It means that people have found GASP endurance exercises help devolop endurance better than maximal strength exercises.
Jeepers Crow, Batman! Who would have thunk? Does that mean that lifting weights isn’t part of Renzo’s routine? Nope. He says otherwise. Does that mean that maximal strength developed lifting weights doesn’t help on the mat? Nope. Experienced folks and science says otherwise.
BTW, the strand pulling thing says a lot about your utter disregard for logical thought or scientific evidence.
I totally agree-the only way to get maximum size and strength is by training with weights. At the same time the guy who can lift the most weight isn’t always the guy who is best in a fight. It seems to me that for a fighter a desired quality is “wiry strength.”
We have all seen it where a guy who isn’t that big or the best lifter may in fact be the toughest. It seems that some of the best ways to develop wiry strength are with strands, isometrics, calsithenics and resistance exercises. Kettlebells are also a good way to develop this qualtity. For some people these alternate types of exercise are a good way to supplement weights and for others [although admittedly a minority] they are used as a stand alone system . Andy
Is wiry strength the quality of being strong without being big? Many people get that from weights. That’s the idea Pavel used to become so popular.
I don’t know where you are going with this - first you say we are “mind locked” by not liking the article, then you give a nod to types of training that aren’t in the article.
Anyway, with that guy’s woes I could have seen him becoming a clubbell or kettlebell junkie.
Originally posted by Andy62
I agree although there ,but there do seem to be some differences. I think strands develop a different muscle quality than weights as they give more of an isokenetic type of resistance. There is no doubt that genetics are king and none of us are going to get beyond our genetic limits.
What are strands? Is that a band or cable exercise? Isokinetic means the speed of contraction is constant.
Why are you now bowing to genetics?
Originally posted by abobo
Why are you now bowing…?
Because the guy recognizes that he’s been OWNED!
Well ofcourse genetics deterimine everything. No matter what method of training you use genetics will determine your upper limit.
Hey, I am not going by rumors,heresay and internet information -Gracie says it plainly in the book. He is on record even if it conflicts with somebody’s belief structure. That book is widely distributed and read. I came across it on another web site.
I am not against weights,but let’s not get cult like about it.
Originally posted by Andy62
I think there is some clintonesque type squirming here trying the fit the statemnet into the belief structure.
Certainly nobody can disagree with that
gracie doesn’t say ANYTHING about weights, according to the quote you provided. he says this:
It makes perfect sense, to think of exercise that involves the movement of your own bodyweight [and to a lesser degree, that of your opponenet’s] as the most important form of conditioning for the MMA fighter. Thus it is calisthenics[exercises that involve the movement of your own body weight] that has consistantly proven to be the most important form of conditioning for the jujitsu fighter. Always remember : if you gain weight, you have to carry that extra weight as you move during the course of the fight, with the result you will tire more quickly.
he’s talking about conditioning, and considering how long many matches, be it bjj, muay thai, boxing, whatever, can go, i’ll plainly put money on the line that renzo is talking about endurance when he (supposedly) mentions conditioning.
back to my original point – the quote says NOTHING about weight work. it simply means that additional weight must be carried. lifting weights won’t necessarily make you big, as we’ve pointed out time and again. even pavel, who you have also quoted, is tiny by most weightlifting standards, but he could outlift most lifters who outweigh him by 50 lbs.
let’s get out the basics:
I agree we are talking about exceptions.
I couldn’t get that link to the interview Ford provided to open.
Originally posted by Andy62
[B]Well ofcourse genetics deterimine everything. No matter what method of training you use genetics will determine your upper limit.
Hey, I am not going by rumors,heresay and internet information -Gracie says it plainly in the book. He is on record even if it conflicts with somebody’s belief structure. That book is widely distributed and read. I came across it on another web site.
I am not against weights,but let’s not get cult like about it. [/B]
I say, what is your point??? How do genetics support or refute anything said thus far? It looks like you are trying to say that such and such is better than weights, but then say that you aren’t against weights.
If you are just throwing this stuff around for discussion to show “flexibility” as you claimed, then why are you clinging to this quote and defending a position that is against weights?
Because the quote is there. To me it is pretty obvious,but we all have to interpret things through our own eyes. I think exercise and conditioning are not a one size fits all thing. While weights will be right for most people there will be exceptions and that is what makes this stuff interesting. Each individual will have to experiment and see what works for them.
then what part of your quote even implies renzo doesn’t lift? i’m still waiting for you to address this.
your whole argument seems to be based on the notion that renzo says he doesn’t lift, which he does not say. he doesn’t even mention weights at all – only extra mass, which can be added by lifting in specific ways, by not being in shape in the first place (and not having what he seems to be addressing with the term “conditioning”). if you’re in good "condition, you’re lean and don’t have unnecessary bulk. being strong from lifting weights is in no way bulky. being big from lifting weights is. strong and big are two exclusive concepts and do not always coincide.
Yes,but he specifically mentions and recommends calisthenics. Usually articles by guys that lift weights mention that in the article. Size at some point ,whether it is muscular weight or not, becomes a cardivascular disadvanvantage. That is to a large extent what Pavel’s concepts are based on. You don’t train a soldier like an athlete-soldiers are trained to endure more while athletes are as Pavel says trained in “green house environments.” The average size of a a US Army Ranger id 5’ 10" and 165 pounds-that is an ideal weight for endurance and mobility. It seems to me that is what Gracie is saying too.
While there are some extreme ectomorphic body types that don’t; it has been my experience that most people will gain weight from weight training.
[SIZE=4]I think there is some clintonesque type squirming here trying the fit the statemnet into the belief structure. - Andy62[/SIZE]
then what part of your quote even implies renzo doesn’t lift? i’m still waiting for you to address this.
Yes,but he specifically mentions and recommends calisthenics.
i’m still waiting for you to address it.
middle-school PE teachers recommend calithsenics. everyone who knows a pushup from a hole in the ground would suggest that they’re good for people (pushups, not holes). fact of the matter is, you said renzo does not recommend weights, which you have yet to show anything resembling backup for this. no one cares if renzo likes calithsenics. no one really cares if he likes weights. but you claimed he doesn’t, as part of your crusade to convince people of the validity of olde-tyme strength exercises and bodyweight work, and you were WRONG. period. next time you try to convince someone of something, make sure your backup evidence is at least 1. correct, and 2. related.
Man, you are blocking reality. I have never seem such dancing and dodging. If someone can’t interpret what he said they are doing serious blocking. That quote is all over the internet and people are interpreting it the same way that I am.
That book is one of the hottest sellers in tha martial arts field. Renzo has made his statement and it is far beyond the internet.