What if I told a little story about a couple of guys that got in a fight - one was a striker, one was a grappler. One was a state champion high school wrestler and the other a 3rd degree brown belt in Tae Kwon Do. What ended the fight was a kick to the head of the wrestler by the TKD guy. It was an immediate knockout. No intervention from friends, broken glass on the floor or other of the “variables” often cited by both sides. It really did happen in my high school. I was there and saw it all.
Why am I telling you this? Because it illustrates the absurdity of the whole “grappling vs. striking” phenomenon that has overtaken many of the internet forums including this one in the past. I’m sure that many people can give me real life examples of a situation that ended the other way around. I just laugh when I hear people talking about why a certain technique couldn’t work against a grappler, or why a grappler would be knocked out instanly by such and such move etc… Its equally absurd in my opinion to watch guys in the UFC and then make blanket statements like:“Oh since (insert name) has beaten so many of these guys then this style of fighting must be better than the other”. When we watch these fighters on T.V. we are looking at someone who is a professional fighter in mostly top physical condition competing in a controlled environment. This is not to say that they couldn’t fight well in a real fight scenario, because most of them can. An art like BJJ might give the edge to a young man over another person who can’t fight well on the ground. But an older person trained in Tai chi might be able to use their knowledge to cheat a near death encounter while being unable to perform the NHB movements which would demand too much from their body, strengh, and capabilities. I spent 4 years learning Judo under a private instructor. I know grappling pretty well or at least well enough to hold my own should the need arise. I don’t know enough to enter NHB competition nor am I in good enough physical condition to compete in a large scale event. Ive met many tough people from many different styles and backgrounds and they all seemingly have 1 thing in common. They seek to catalog a set of moves to meet with any encounter that could be presented to them. The moves they select are based upon how effeciently their body framework enables them to execute the moves while obtaining maximum results.
I experienced this in my Judo traing. Many of the killer moves that my instructor would use to get me to submit every time I was unable to perform equally as he. This was because I was built differently and his physiological makeup enabled him to successfully execute them. Likewise I had moves that I could do that he was unable to get equal results. I have watched some of the Gracie’s tapes(instructional), and there are a lot of good moves that I feel I could execute competently. Some however I have tried and cannot get them to work very well. I atttribute this to the same body makeup arguement that was the basis of difference between my instructor and myself. These guys know themselves and what they can do. They might be able to successfully get you in a figure 4 knecklock quite easily, while you might never be able to reproduce the desired effect. I think that any fighter whether stand up or ground oriented can perfect his/her gameplan to a very high level if they realize the techniques that work more effectively for them and while learning the ohters - not specifically relying on them in a fight. Do what works best. In other words, I don’t think there is necessarily any bad techniques, only techniques that work better for some than others. In the afforementioned example, the TKD guy’s kick was obviously fast enough and powerful to negate the grappler’s takedown that he tried to perform. There are some grapplers I’m sure that could probably have avoided it. Just an example of individuality in training i guess.
It’s a shame that so many people here don’t know what gong fu is. It should be all encompassing, gong fu in wushu is great, and will develop a great martial artist, but many people don’t realize that a good fighter in a style may not have a lot of the skills that style encompasses. There are many techniques in many arts that can be translated into multiple situations, this includes grappling skills coming from striking. Until people realize that in studying most arts that they are headed in the same direction, albeit a different path than others doing martial arts, they won’t realize what their potential is. I (until a recent dislocation of my patella and partially torn MCL) was sparring with people of mutliple backrounds every thursday. This showed me a few things. The jujitsu teacher is **** good and it hurts when you get taken down fast, you can get locked up faster than you can think sometimes, you can counter grappling with grappling, or striking, or a mixture of both, and a good strike doesn’t always stop someone from getting inside. Regardless the basis of much of the footwork and handwork works along the same basics and physics. Using the hand/foot work to change the balance is universal, and hopefully more people will come to realize this (just not my opponents ). Oh, and another week and I can stop wearing my brace. 
In the past “Beimo” or the equivalent of a match today was done often just to test the skill levels between two combatants and not of the style’s superiority. There are rules governing the match as its purpose is to measure how skillful you are in fighting. Wong Shun Leung did many of these beimos to test and to refine his WC fighting skills to his great personal benefits. Many of his defeated foes later became his good friends. In many of his speeches, Wong advised to stay clear of the evil of pitting styles against styles in such like as UFC, NHB, and MMA that we see today. I hope we can put things in perspective for the improvement of our training.
so wong said it helped improve and refine his technique to great perfonal benefit . But we shouldnt enter UFC because its evil :rolleyes:
why kf will never get anywhere , we are the flower power kung fu generation
Re: Striker beats grappler
Originally posted by Black Belt Jones 1
Many of the killer moves that my instructor would use to get me to submit every time I was unable to perform equally as he. This was because I was built differently and his physiological makeup enabled him to successfully execute them.
it couldn’t have been his years of training I guess.
Re: Striker beats grappler
Originally posted by Black Belt Jones 1
What if I told a little story about a couple of guys that got in a fight - one was a striker, one was a grappler. One was a state champion high school wrestler and the other a 3rd degree brown belt in Tae Kwon Do. What ended the fight was a kick to the head of the wrestler by the TKD guy
I would reply: “Yeah it happened four years ago when Maurice Smith kicked Conan Silvaria in the bloody cranium.”
Amen to that Brad 
I thought that whole striker vrs grappler thing was over at about UFC 15.
There is no best style of MA. So many of them overlap each other and many of them are incomplete. The best thing is learn whatever style you choose to the best of your ability but also have the knowledge to be effective in any situation.
ie. You could be a world champion jiu jitsu player and also a world champion kickboxer who gets confronted by 10 members of some roudy street gang. You might have all the skills to fight effectivley but you would be better off with the knowledge of a sprinter and marathon runner:)
I thought that was a very good post from Black Belt Jones.
BBJ: “Many of the killer moves that my instructor would use to get me to submit every time I was unable to perform equally as he. This was because I was built differently and his physiological makeup enabled him to successfully execute them.”
Chinghei: “It couldn’t have been his years of training I guess”
Nice sarcastic answer, experience obvously has a lot to do with this, but there is something to be said about different techniques having various degrees of success for different people.
Also, maybe some of the techniques that did not work against your instructor may have worked against someone different.
Rather than putting it down to you not being able to perform it maybe it was your instructor it didn’t work on. Whenever we are shown a joint lock or anything involving limb leverage against a joint there is ALWAYS someone in the class who it just doesn’t effect.
Anyone else notice this?
I have yet to run across a jointlock or choke in BJJ that just “doesn’t work” on me or anybody else.
I will agree, however, that there is varying flexibility from one individual to the next and that full extension on one person may not be on another.
Yeah I can see how a choke would work on anyone, I suppose if I think about it the locks I have seen not work are wrist locks.
But then again not everyone in the class is demonstrated on by the instructor, so I suppose that would be the control.
Sorry, bit of a jump from (small) personal experience to rash generalization there.
Many Joint locks are ineffective, NOT because the technique is bad, but because the specific opponent knows how to defete it before it is fully locked.
Originally posted by scotty1
[B]
Chinghei: “It couldn’t have been his years of training I guess”
Nice sarcastic answer, experience obvously has a lot to do with this, but there is something to be said about different techniques having various degrees of success for different people.
[/B]
that’s a cop-out for not working on weaknesses
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Many Joint locks are ineffective, NOT because the technique is bad, but because the specific opponent knows how to defete it before it is fully locked.
not only joint locks, but all techniques. of course it is easier on the ego to think “I must have the wrong body type for this” than “I suck at this, I’d better practice more.”
chingei, in response
“it couldn’t have anything to do with his years of experience?”
Yes experience does play a role however my instructor outweighed me by 45 lbs and was much stronger. I have sparred with many judoka both smaller than myself and much larger and all the larger opponents have the luxury of supplementing their technique with strength and size. The point that I was getting at was many of the larger jiu jitsu/grappling guys whose tapes I have seen often employ techniques that are better suited to an opponent that has the strength to execute them. When I was taught Judo I was taught to perform the moves without the use of muscular exertion. This is the most basic of judo technique “the gentle way” and should be taught to everyone first. If the student has physical attributes (size/strength) then after considerable time in training he/she can supplement their technique with these inherent advantages. For example I am not of a strong build - rather lanky and wiry. These attributes enable me to effectively choke an opponent from a kessa-gatame, a control hold that is meant to immobilize, not really choke an opponent. My instructor was unable to accomplish this since his arms were so big and meaty. As he always would say “bone, not muscle, chokes people”. If I were to try and teach kessa - gatame as a choking technique then I would be doing a great disservice to my students. I have seen a jiu jitsu instructors VHS instructional tape where the instuctor was in the side mount and cranking/choking an opponent by putting his fist on the mat and leveraging against the opponents head. This works fine if you can curl 175 lbs. But what I found(and also my instructor, when I inquired of him about it) was that unless you are very strong it doesn’t take a whole lot of resistance to thwart it. No 1 technique is a fail safe, end all including all BJJ/Judo/wrestling techniques. I have had nearly unlimited success with many choking techniques until I applied them to someone who was able to twist out of it. What bugs me as a grappler and now a part time kung fu/tai chi stylist is that the grappling moves are taught/puported as “unbeatable” (when dirrected at stand up fighters) to the public. I blame this for the invasion of “internet grappler warriors” that seems to plague online forums. I have seen many great grapplers/wrestlers that I as a stand up fighter would not want to mess with. As a grappler I have also known many stand up fighters that could hand me my butt as a grappler. What I discovered in judo about grappling in general is that for every move there is a counter move that can effectively thawrt the former and vice vera. The whole crux of my arguement is that lots of subscribers to the grappling paradigm of today seem to suggest that their moves are unmatched and that is not so.
The whole crux of my arguement is that lots of subscribers to the grappling paradigm of today seem to suggest that their moves are unmatched and that is not so.
Mo Smith proved that long time ago at UFC. He won a couple before learning submission fighting.
Dark Knight
“Mo Smith proved that long time ago at UFC. He won a couple before learning submission fighting.”
That is completely untrue. Mo Smith learned the grappling before he fought his first fight in Extreme challenge. If you watch his fight with Conan he used a great defensive guard in or to get back to his feet.
“that’s a cop-out for not working on weaknesses”
only if you let it be used as such.
Your right, my Bad.
Mo had a fighting background in pancrse back to 93.
He still claims to be a kickboxer, even though he has won by submission.
Originally posted by scotty1
[B]“that’s a cop-out for not working on weaknesses”
only if you let it be used as such. [/B]
ok