This isn’t a troll thread, or a who is better thread. Iam interested in developing a better ground game so I would like to know what you think the pros and cons of the various schools are. So far I am interested in :
Silat
Gracie BJJ
Machado BJJ
The main cons I see with Gracie JJ is the insane cost of instruction. I always tell people to just learn Judo and/or Wrestling. Its a heck of a lot cheaper, and more than likely you’ll run into a bjj practioner since so many cross-train in Judo and Wrestling and vice versa.
In my opinion
no-gi submission grappling.
My submission club is like that, active rolling, no belts, prepreation for competing.
I honestly don’t mean this as an insult, but you are too old to start Wrestling or Judo now.
Go with BJJ
I think Judo is the best for the street. You can become a master at throws, which is probably safer on the street. The ground work has a lot of great hold down which can be a safe way to end a fight without to much damage. And also it is cheap. I was going to a Judo school in NYC for 40$ a month. The teacher is a 6th degree black belt in his 60’s and still competes.
I preffer judo as well. It’s better to keep your feet if at all possible. Judo will teach you to do that, with the added bonus of teaching you what to do if you do go to the ground. In judo the goal of your ground game is either to restrain your opponent, or get up quickly. In BJJ once you hit the ground you tend to stay there; BIG no-no on the street. Too much chest thumping in Gracie JJ for my taste anyway.
And you aren’t too old for judo either. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Samurai Jack;701791] And you aren’t too old for judo either. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
50 years old starting for the first time? What are you, a hip-replacement salesman?
[QUOTE=unkokusai;701795]50 years old starting for the first time? What are you, a hip-replacement salesman?[/QUOTE]
Bear in mind that Ten Tigers is also in much better shape than your average 50 y.o. and an experienced MA. If it didn’t make a difference, then judo teachers would all be in thier 30’s.
Listen carefully, I’m talking about starting in one’s 50s. No, it’s not impossible or anything, but strategic choices should be made.
For example, I know people in their 50s who still wrestle, but they started 40+ years ago and know how to adjust for the issues that age bring to the situation. Someone starting wrestling at 50 is almost certainly going to get hurt alot and not get all that good at it anyway.
If anyone is interested look up Geprge Pasiuk in NYC. He was my teacher the 6th degree black belt who still competes. This is not a hard core judo school. You won’t get injured there. The people are really nice also. This club has people who are training there that are in their 50’s. I can think of two off the top of my head.
Well, perhaps at the judo school you trained at, this would be true. In my experience judo is much easier on the body than BJJ. After reconsidering, I concede that any style can be dangerous for any beginner, at any age, if the training is not graded to the physical ability of the practitioner.
So the best policy is probably to go and see how the individual teacher trains his students.
Search not only for a school that teaches quality ground techniques but also anti-ground techniques (in other words how to avoid going to the ground).
Oh brother, let’s not start in on the ‘anti-grapple’ myth again!:rolleyes:
So nothing can stop grappling? I can think of a few things off the top of my head… bullets, pointy objects, getting the he1l outta the way…
and the bullets will work too…
[QUOTE=Travesty;703069]So nothing can stop grappling? …[/QUOTE]
Yeah, better grappling. Not empty marketing slogans.
I’m not worried about getting banged around-over 30 yrs in MA, Kyokushin,Hakko-Ryu,Hapkido,and that’s before I got seriously into Hung Kuen. I’m pushin 50, but I still bang, and I let my students throw me, with or without mats, makes no differnce. Why let them have all the fun?
(ok, I might have exagerrated a bit on that “makes no differnce” part!)
I’m just looking for the most efficient, and nastiest grappling skills. I don’t want to rollaround on the ground like a dog for ten minutes, I just want to bust’em up, bring’em down, ground 'n pound, or break whatever I need to and get up and go. Really, the nastiest sheite possible.
“Old age and treachery will overcome youth and vigour”
[QUOTE=TenTigers;703077] I don’t want to rollaround on the ground like a dog for ten minutes, :[/QUOTE]
“dog”? Why would “dog” be the animal that comes to mind for that simile? Wouldn’t a snake or something make more sense?
Anyway, if you are looking to impose limits on how long you can ‘allow’ yourself to work in that range, you are probably not going to get much of value.
In my experience judo is much easier on the body than BJJ.
Wow! Where are you training?!
I’m not trying to be a ****, I mean that seriously… IME Judo is probably one of the hardest, bone crunching, joint-messing-up things out there.
Just really WOW.
Perhaps you just fall a hell of a lot better than me or something.
Re: the first question, it’s really kind of a fallacious one.
There’s good grappling and bad grappling. “Style” is really just shorthand for what you’re going to get good at faster.
What unkokusai brings up about wrestling IS a valid point, but not so much in the sense that wrestling is inherently hard on the joints, any more than any other grappling style… It’s more that wrestlers in the United States are a tough crowd, more often than not preparing for competition, and the intensity level is usually extremely high. This, regardless of what you talk to the coach or other students about, is going to affect you. Ex wrestlers at BJJ class who haven’t been doing BJJ for very long are extremely and effectively aggressive.
I tend to disagree about starting Judo now. You could definitely do that IF you pick the right place. If you find a recreational judo club, you would probably be fine. But Judo is absolutely not easy on the body. Falling hurts and when you do it wrong/don’t have the opportunity to fall correctly cause it was a sweet throw, it will **** YOU UP. Just ask my surgically repaired left shoulder 
Competition Judo is brutal and the training is correspondingly so.
BJJ tends to have far fewer jarring impacts, and injuries are usually genuine accidents as opposed to the consequences of the grappling. You are unlikely to learn any truly solid takedown skills, but that will depend on your instructor(s).
However, one often overlooked benefit of BJJ, is that you get to dictate whether or not the fight is going to STAY on the ground. I’ve got a brown belt in BJJ, and there are a very small number of people in this world who can keep me on the ground - not like I’m a badass, just that not many people train to KEEP you on the ground - not even Judoka, and I spend a lot of time learning how to escape. Escaping on the ground is a tremendously useful skill, and one that requires just as much practice as anything else.
That said, if you don’t “want to roll around on the ground like a dog for ten minutes,” then I’d say you aren’t approaching this with an open mind, and kind of missing the point as well. No offense intended, but you might want to consider that.
Yeah, better grappling. Not empty marketing slogans.
May be the best post on this board in a long time.
yeah, don’t train in anything that one might consider the anti-grappling, or ways to not go to the ground myth. because all traditional systems have no clinching or pummelling. these are only found in grappling. pay attention to maybe fedor or krocop too. krocop never trains anything that one might consider anti-grappling or ways to not go to the ground myth. as the fight begins he just goes to the middle of the ring and falls down in guard. oh no, yeah he trains that too, but he also trains grappling. so…:eek:
Falling to the guard is stupid, even if you’re Nogeura.
What we are saying Tao Yin, is that Anti-Grappling is a myth. It’s a stupid awful, bull**** myth perpetuated by people who don’t understand grappling, or are looking to make a quick buck off people who don’t want to confront reality.
What beats grappling is better grappling. That doesn’t mean you have to be an overall better grappler. It means that you have to concentrate on grappling defenses and escapes, and make them better than a “good grappler.” The striking oriented fighters you cited are evidence of precisely what I am talking about.
But these are, by definition, grappling. Grappling is nothing more than maniuplation of the body through grabbing with the limbs (underhook, overhooks, leg hooks, crossfaces, etc) or hands (wrist control, etc). In case you hadn’t noticed, sprawling, escaping from the bottom, and other such defenses involve a significant amount of body manipulation using these types of manuevers.
It would be like practicing “anti-striking.” You notice that nobody ever says such stupid crap. There is “practicing your defenses,” but nothing so blatantly ridiculous as “I’m going to go learn some anti-striking.”
Please.
To address your other point, nobody is suggesting that other arts don’t have the clinch and takedowns. However, who is going to have perfected those things? Would you go to a Judoka to learn to kick?
Here’s something to consider - what makes Chuck Liddell so dangerous? Is it his heavy hands? Well, Tank has heavy hands, but he pretty much sucks in comparison to top competition.
Oh wait…it’s Chuck’s exceptional wrestling background that enables him to use grappling to keep his feet to EMPLOY his heavy hands.
I suppose though, that Randy Couture defeated him once because of his “anti-striking skills.” :rolleyes:
But hey, anybody on this thread - feel free to listen to who you want - either me and unkokusai, who have collectively grappled and by definition have defended against grappling maneuvers for probably 30+ years, or somebody who advocates “anti-grappling.”