“it’s the off balancing that removes the impact, not the lock”
I know 
And in regards to using both hands in the figure 4… for better control yes, but on a weaker opponent it can be locked with 1 hand, the other can be used to strike or press pressure points…
And yes, pressures points hurt like bloody hell once the tendons are stretched.
BlackJack, it’s a lot easier to throw somebody when striking is involved. When you add striking, your handwork hides your footwork. Usually, if you throw punches at the same time that you enter for a throw, your opponent wont even recognize the set up. The cool thing is that you don’t even have to be that good of a boxer, you just need to get him to think about your hands rather than your feet. Compare this to grappling only where your opponent is going to be very aware of any change in your position. It’s much easier to throw someone if striking is involved.
Merry, as far as I’m concerned, we’re simply talking about strategy between 2 different yet similar arts. It’s an exchange of info.
Dig it!
I’m all for that. I really enjoyed watching the SC guy on that one set of vids throw his opponent all over the place.
Are you still in Chicago?
Yup, still in the Chi. You still planning on coming thru one of these days?
The Chang vid is excellant. For another good example of differences between Judo and SC, watch the vid again. But pay very close attention to Chang Tung Sheng’s use of footwork to set up the throws.
Can you post the link? I’d like to compare it to what I know.
Yeah, I’ll come through one of these days. I have friends in Milwaukee so I’ll convince them to head to Chicago w/me.
a quick hijack
Originally posted by Merryprankster
I have had significant success with ****zer grip uchi mata, some with the flying mare (drop seio-nage), and a host of hip, back arch throws off of duck-unders to waist control positions as well as over/underhooks.
Nice to see someone else likes this form of uchimata as well.
Have you found it really hard to pull off against people significantly heavier than you? This is in contrast to, say, seoi nage or ogoshi, throws that seem a bit more forgiving of weight difference.
Pay real close attention to the forward sweep and the double leg Uchimata (hip throw with Ho Ti). Those are the best examples of what I’m talking about. Let me know what you think.
Wait a minute, we agree then, striking is a excellent maneuver to close range and break down the attacker for either a throw, lock/hold, or a combo lock/hold throw.
I feel like holding hands and singing that wonderfull old coke a cola balad.
I would like to buy the world a… 
WD, I don’t see any footwork that is markedly different from Judo or wrestling for that matter. Not trying to be a ****, just don’t see it. That said, the fellow is clearly very skilled. There was a bit more of a hack to the foot sweeps, but that makes a lot of sense to me.
I didn’t see any upper body joint locks either–saw a lot of similarities in control positions–russian tie type throws, head and arm control, etc. I’m not sure if I was supposed to be looking for that.
That double leg uchi mata is a harai goshi in Judo BTW. Good throw!
OK, harai goshi. I usually just go to the judoinfo site, try to find the throw that looks closest to what I’m referring to, and call it that
Anyhoo, with the harai goshi example: If you watch the set up for the throw, GM Chang is stepping in behind the throwee’s leg and pivotin around that for the entry What it does is stops the opponent from escaping because your legs are now “stuck” together. The Judo guys I’ve played with tend to pull on the gi to make that space.
This isn’t a perfect example of what I mean but check out the seionage on the bottom of this page for an idea of what I’m talking about
Same thing with the sweep. The Judo guys I’ve played with will try to pull me forward on a line and then reap out the leg whereas in SC, you will kick the leg out and then reap it.
The Judo guys I’ve played with tend to pull on the gi to make that space.
Hmm… The people I’ve met do both. I think that’s interesting. May be a skill level issue. Might also just be a personal preference thing.
However, I don’t see it as drastically different. Either is perfectly acceptable really, as long as the balance is broken, yeah?
Same thing with the sweep. The Judo guys I’ve played with will try to pull me forward on a line and then reap out the leg whereas in SC, you will kick the leg out and then reap it.
Yeah–ones an advancing foot sweep, the one Chang shows is a retreating version. Judoka do both, but you see the advancing one more often. You have to get pretty deep to do the retreating version Chang does!
I use a lot of foot sweep to reaping combos to get their legs spread out and weight on the heels.
Have you found it really hard to pull off against people significantly heavier than you? This is in contrast to, say, seoi nage or ogoshi, throws that seem a bit more forgiving of weight difference.
Nope. In fact, I find Ogoshi and seio much harder against heavier people.
I throw ShaolinTiger00 with Uchi Mata fairly often. He gets me back with Yama Arashi and the occasional tai otoshi.
I have a hard time hitting wizzer grip uchi on TALLER people, but you can drive across for an ankle pick or Tai Otoshi to solve that.
OK, then it’s something I just haven’t run across yet. I can buy that.
To be fair WD probably 90% of the Judoka you meet will pull you forward onto your toes. That’s the traditional Harai and that’s how most people do it. A very few will pull you forward AND step deep like that.
So if we’re making generalizations (which are useful when discussing styles) then yeah, you’re more or less right. Judoka will usually pull.
Also, you really won’t see that retreating version of the sweep very often.
That said, the mechanics are really nice in the Chang vid. Good stuff.
Where you are likely to see these other variations is with higher level judoka who have a heavy unorthodox (eastern european) influence. Lots of ‘odd’ looking throws.
We have a BJJ class that comes in from 5-7 before us, so whenever I need to get some ground work in I can just go roll with them.
I prefer using strikes to set up entry for throws, and also I prefer to stay standing. However, if I do go to the ground, Im glad I some knowledge of bjj.
Re:
Hello again!No luck in finding a picture of this reversal,so i will try to explain it.This is in no way the best or only way of reversing a figure four arm lock and it really depends on what your opponent is doing as to what you will do.
I am not sure if you are referring a figure four starting with a right or left hand on the inside or outside of the arm,this works for both but is changed slightly depending on which they are using.
For this one we will say their left hand is on the outside(to move your forearm up while their right hand pushes in and down to bend the elbow(arm) of your right forearm and their right hand is sliding in and over the top of your elbow or bicep to grap their left forearm(wrist) to lock your arm.You go along with the movement when your opponent is putting pressure on your forearm and elbow to bend the arm and bring your elbow in to your centerline and your left foot steps at a 45 degree angle (towards your opponents left side.While stepping your body is also turning so your centerline is facing your opponent and also simultaneously your right hand is turning at the wrist to grab hold of your opponents left wrist.Continue from wrist grab by moving in closer to opponent while twisting their wrist to turn their elbow towards yourself.
Slide your left hand or arm against or across opponents elbow (or a palm strike,away from yourself, to their elbow while your right hand is pulling ,while grabbing wrist,towards yourself)to perform a armbar .Left hand can also perform a palm roll to the triceps muscle for pain to aid the arm bar.
Hope this makes some sense,if not i tried to explain it anyway.