Originally posted by turbo76
got a picture of this hold
No, but it’s basically just a standing Americana.
Re:
One reversal is to turn it into an armbar or elbow break against them.I will try to find a picture,if not i will try to explain it to you.It works very well i have used it many times.
For this one it has to be done before they completely lock it in
or it turns into a battle of strength.If they lock it in you than change to something different.
This lock is the basis for one of are silat systems dead locks and its variations called sinking python. To get into the lock, we use close quarter striking first to attack the attacker, to shock him up, knock him offbalance and then if he is still at a angle of opportunity where the positioning of one’s body to make this particular hold is operative and if he is still standing, we get in very tight and apply it.
With us we almost always apply it with a sweep. But there is also a downward snap drop and swivel throw verison as well.
The counter pentas to this movement is either a overpush or a underhand smoother before the lock is on followed by a reverse sweep. Its part of what we call pentas or counter attack and it is used in a energy drill fashion.
Cheers
“Theres a reversal to EVERY lock.”
- Hmm that statement needs to be reworded.
A competant grappler will give you hell in a handbasket when it comes to joint locks and you had better be prepared to get out before they manage to solidify a lock.
As a good example im certainly no great grappler but i would be ammazed if someone of a similar size could let me cement a rear naked and then manage to worm there way out of it.
Its usualy been my experience that a good grappler (joint locker) will seek to make there locks failsafe and the better they are the more chance they have of doing it.
I guess what im trying to say here is that vs a skilled opponent you have to get out of the lock during the set up. You cant simply wait for them to solidify there lock and then try some kind of magic trick to get out.
The lock you have mentioned sounds a bit like a standing Americana which is very easy to get of (during the setup)when your standing. It is very difficualt to get out of however if your on the ground as the leverage is totaly different. Done from the mount and American is a great submission, done from standing its next to useless as it relies to two arms to lock a single.
I share TW and ST00’s extreme distrust of standing joint locks as effective ways of doing…well, anything, really.
That said it’s clear that if you do get this, a backwards throw of some kind is the next step (ie, WD’s suggested O Soto Gari type throw).
I can’t imagine getting this on anybody remotely competant with any sort of regularity.
This move depends on your arm being bent. Move your body to straighten your arm. Easier said than done, of course.
I think that maybe you misunderstand the purpose of standing locks MP. That’s OK though, ‘ca use so do about 90 % of the people that practice them. Let’s use my previous example to start from. We are in the clinch I described earlier. You remove your right hand and circle around for the Americana. As you get your right hand behind their right elbow, they sense what you are doing and straighten their arm.
Scenario 1: They straighten their arm out palm up, elbow down. This is the less likely scenario, but a he11 of a gift if they do it. You slide your right arm in so that their elbow joint is now in the crook of your elbow. At the same time, your left hand slides from the crook of your elbow to their right wrist. The Americana has now become an armbar. “Pop” the elbow joint which will get them to shift their weight forward. When they do, sweep them.
Scenario 2: They straighten their arm palm down, elbow up. Truthfully, this is how anyone who knows what they are doing will most likely respond. It cuts down on the chance of the elbow getting popped and opens up counter attacks of your own. Anyhoo, . You slide your right arm in so that your right elbows are crook to crook. At the same time, your left hand slides from the crook of your elbow to their right wrist. Now “pop” them with your right elbow crook which is going to bend the arm so that the tip of their elbow is now pointing to the ceiling. All you have to do now is step behind and you will have a fairly standard Chicken Wing on them. From here, the easiest thing to do is abandon the lock and take the rear naked.
A couple points: It is very likely that your opponent will defend the first lock. That’s OK. Locks are supposed to be strung together just like throws or punches, or if you do BJJ, locks!
Secondly, you should note that the locks are not being used as submissions, bone breaks, dislocations, etc. The locks are being used to manipulate your body into a position where you can be thrown or taken down to the ground. Breaks definitely CAN happen, so be careful! Still, the idea in your head as you are going for locks should be manipulation of structure, not raw damage. It’ll help you flow together.
And for anyone wondering why in the he11 you would want to practice this anyway, go do Judo for a few months exclusively no gi and see how much your grip fighting changes
No, I completely understand the purpose of the standing joint lock–it’s an entry and an off-balance. I just don’t like them. I think there are better ways to go about this than fishing for a limb in that way. Of course, if you train hard enough using them I suppose they will work.
That’s why I said it’s clear the follow-up is a throw.
Standing locks are useless if you dont train them enough. :rolleyes:
And yes, what I described is pretty much always followed with the takedown. I was just curious as to what type of reversal there was for it.
" “Theres a reversal to EVERY lock.”
- Hmm that statement needs to be reworded. "
Nope, it doesnt. There IS a reversal to EVERY lock. No I do not know them, and even if I did, no I probably could not apply most of them. They are still there however…
Ah. I see MP already stated the eficacy of standing locks
Just requires significant speed, and crisp technique.
Originally posted by Merryprankster
I think there are better ways to go about this than fishing for a limb in that way.
The follow up is definately a throw. I’m curious as to how you prefer to set up throws (not takedowns) in a non-jacketed situation.
Before we start arguing a misunderstandiong, I’m not advocating usinf locks as an exclusive entry system for throwing, just a valid part of it.
Example: We are wrestling with no jacket. I have both my hands into the crooks of your elbows and am pushing them back. I step forward with my right foot to hook in behind your left heel so that I can enter for a standard hip throw. You step out to avoid my leg hooking, so I let go of your left arm and go for a straight armbar with a forward sweep. I may get the sweep, or the match may continue, but this should give you an idea of the flow I’m talking about.
** If we are wearing jackets, I’m just gonna get a grip and throw as this is much easier to do.
I am not a hardline follower of standing locks by any means. I don’t like complicated things. I would just rather just slam him around with chops, elbows and knees untell I can grab his head and throw him onto the ground.
But I do see a place for some of them after a person has been shocked up, after the attacker has been forced to deal with an attack on diversified targets, thus creating the opening and angulation I need to secure the hold.
I do believe they need a lot of practice of course. But what really does not.
WD, I set up throws off wizzer grips, underhooks, overhooks, double inside control, and collar and elbow ties with a mix of snapping down, shucking, dragging etc to get the guy to step or react in a way that puts the weight where I want it.
I have had significant success with ****zer grip uchi mata, some with the flying mare (drop seio-nage), and a host of hip, back arch throws off of duck-unders to waist control positions as well as over/underhooks.
BlackJack, if striking enters the equation, it’s a whole different game. What ya gonna do in a standing grapplingsituation with no strikes?
wizzer grips?
Please explain.
This thread is starting to get interesting.
Oh yeah…
WD, john wang has a seminar comming up in Austin in like october or november as far as I know…
A wizzer grip is when you have an overhook on one arm, but move out to the side with it. The opponent has his arm across your back and you have the arm hooked over top. You use your body weight and shoulder to pressure the arm you have trapped to keep control over your opponent.
Ahh… So you do not practice any standing locks? Some of them may wind up getting you hit 1 or 2 times, but the throw youve set is well worth it… And the hits will be off balance and weak.
slaps are great preambles to locks. Good to distort and disorient opponents. Slap to face or crotch.
Pretty much any good hit is enough to stun someone a second to apply a good standing lock… and once that lock is there time to throw.
I just like knowing reversals… because I do.
This thread is getting interesting.
Merry, take your description of the ****zer and target his elbow joint with your bicep. Instead of going for the hip toss, reap out his back leg. If you don’t get the lock, you still get the throw. It’s safe, efficient, and workable in real time.
Why is it a different game? Why would there be no available strikes for me to use?
I just tend to think of it as proper continuity of movement. The principle that no one move passes from one position to another without being utilized effectively.
Do I have counterattack holds that work off of not striking, sure, I would just prefer in a perfect enviroment to be able to hit, then control.
Who do you think would have the higher success ratio in the below scenrio?
- Gent trying to secure a standing elbow joint manipulation/takedown on a fully functional, resisting, attacker.
or
- Gent slamming a elbow jab into attackers face or ribs before attempting to secure a standing elbow joint manipulation/takedown.
We are talking about more fine motor based locks here right?
Cheers
Just for clarification…
What exactly are we considering a lock?
Ex: opponent punches right hand while squared off, right foot forward. Block it to the outside with the left, underhook the elbow with the right.
We considering this a lock, or a set up?
The difference is that I have better control over his movement than at the elbow joint. A good opponent will limp arm out of the wizzer if you put it on the elbow. Reaping his leg from the back might get you the throw, and it might not.
Please don’t get me wrong–I have no doubt that what you do is working for you. I just don’t personally like them very much because I think you get better control with other hooks. I really think this is very much an issue of preference.
SD, I don’t use standing locks, typically. However, the weak-ass punches and what-nots you are talking about hold true with my grips as well–it’s the off balancing that removes the impact, not the lock.