[QUOTE=Merryprankster;769468]Disagreement? Confusion?
None!
Sifu said!
End of Thread.[/QUOTE] Are you serious??
Muscle Action Spectrum; eccentric ( deceleration, force reduction) concentric ( acceleration, force production) and isometric ( stabilization , dynamic support).
Isometric: exercise in which muscles are briefly tensed in opposition to other muscle or to an immoveable object.
No visable movement with or against resistance. Dynamically stabalizes forces.
Isometric contraction:a muscle maintaining a certain length.
How can a muscle maintain a certain length if it is moving eccentrically or concentrically??
[I]In personal training we use the drawing in manuever which is the samething we do in martial arts training and Qi Gong by tucking the hips up and under.
This helps us find equalibrium, our center of gravity , aligns our skeletal structure, gives us proper posture, connect the du and ren meridians, etc.
If you can not see the value of static stance trainig in your martial arts then you do not know enough about anatomy , physiology,or real martial arts training.[/I]
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This can’t possibly be true…it aggrees too much with Traditional Chinese training methodology!! I mean, it would be like practicieng stances, and getting all sorts of great results like I did the last 6 weeks!! ! 
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;769483][I]In personal training we use the drawing in manuever which is the samething we do in martial arts training and Qi Gong by tucking the hips up and under.
This helps us find equalibrium, our center of gravity , aligns our skeletal structure, gives us proper posture, connect the du and ren meridians, etc.
If you can not see the value of static stance trainig in your martial arts then you do not know enough about anatomy , physiology,or real martial arts training.[/I]
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This can’t possibly be true…it aggrees too much with Traditional Chinese training methodology!! I mean, it would be like practicieng stances, and getting all sorts of great results like I did the last 6 weeks!! ! ;)[/QUOTE]Exactly.
It is obvious to me…
The Chinese have known a lot more about our existance for a lot longer based on the teachings we have absorbed …but most of them just do not have the scientific backround to substantiate it or articulate it.
Tatooed Monk,
Well said. It occured to me that some guys are comparing apples to apple pie.
Firstly, there are several issues involved in a system of training, strength, mobility, focus, intent, and techniques. Lots of systems fall apart when you pull out single elements and examine them in isolation.
You can’t debate the strength and skill of the MMA player, using modern techniques and sport combat training. That’s not the intent - more than one way to skin a cat.
The question is, why does the “old way” work in the way it works. Static training, like stance, builds strength, aligns the body, builds physical memory and reinforces fundamentals. Dynamic training, like form, applies the lessons to a moving format.
The two together profide a foundation upon which to develop fighting skills. They are NOT the fighting skills, just the foundation.
I think it is foolish to think that long deep stance trainig means that you only learn that one single position and only have strength in that position. The System simply uses that as one building block in the foundation, a system. It can’t be considered in isolation.
Another issue that comes of Stance training is the pain training, the hardening and the development of resolution, comittment and focus.
The saying is that the young man starts with the deepest stance, and as you get older it gets higher - like, no surprises there… But its not just about age and strength, it also reflects having the foundation already in place.
Again, this is only in reference to strength and mobility, not to the actual application of the skills, that may be an issue, but not this one.
Proper stance leads to proper structure, proper structure leads to good footwork. Same for boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, and Kung Fu.
The question that started the thread was “Why am I more flexible, mobile, etc” Isn’t it fair to say. “Better footwork?”
He didn’t say, Why can I all the sudden tear the heads off my opponents in the local MMA tournement."
As for the static “Isometric” training, well, during this training, the joints don’t move. Muscle and tendon repair themselves, joints don’t, or at least, they can, but they do so much more slowly. If you’re in it for the long term, this becomes an issue.
Look at the move towards ‘low impact’ training in modern circles. Is this vindication of traditional ‘low impact’ training?
A mix of low and high impact training certainly is less taxing on your consumable components than a strictly high impact alternative?
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;769473], whos trained from video with no partners for the past god knows how long? But, wait, sorry eh, it doesnt agree with you, therefore its worthless and Im lazy? You may even be worse than an ass
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I have learned from and trained under real people plenty…infact all my core material was taught to me one on one from actual live teachers…that includeds all my core curriculem, over all training methodology, basics, fundemental structure and mechanics, drills techniques, applications etc…
Mostly what I got from video and books are just form choreography to play with during times I had no teachers or training partners and a few neat conditioning exercises or new insite into stuff I already knew. All my real working knowledge and core practice comes from actual real teachers though…but you’d know that if you paid attention, now wouldn’t you.
So please excuse me if I haven’t spent 18 years learning from one obscour, famous Chinese master who’s only ingrish is being able to say “awwww, berrry gooood!” because I studied in the ubber styles under him in a well known secret society/ Temple/chinese resturaunt controlled by theTongs… like you obviously did…:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]Relax, pal. I wasn’t slating your ability. I just mentioned that my anecdotal evidence may just be equal to yours.
So don’t use petty quibbles to avoid the main points. Which is that you still haven’t said how you’re measuring these results…
And I don’t know what your final reference is supposed to be to… I’ve never intimated my teachers were the sh!t.
But incidentally, when was the last time you trained regularly with other people? With live resistant training? Using the stances you’ve been training?
Last thursday actually. We were doing some takedowns that used deep horse stance.
I haven’t doen fully resisting in a while, but my guy is getting clse to it, so it should be soon. Right now I’m starting twoman footwork drills with him this comming week.
Stance training is all well and good but to spout off like Kwai does that it actually has some modern relevance in self defense just because it is “old” means much of little.
I much more believe that you can get better rewards spent on developing actual usefull “stance work” by hitting the bag, sparring, freeweight training with squats and lunges, pylo’s in combination with weight training, ladder drills, and even just by playing sports such as basketball and soccer.
But again the world is a big place, if not anything else you are getting a workout in, building up that endurance.
[QUOTE=Black Jack II;769521]I much more believe that you can get better rewards spent on developing actual usefull “stance work” by hitting the bag, sparring, freeweight training with squats and lunges, pylo’s in combination with weight training, ladder drills, and even just by playing sports such as basketball and soccer.
[/QUOTE]
I’ll agree, but remember, some stance training is done with weight encumberance.
Some stance training is done dynamically, moving from one to the other, like many of “stepping” forms that are half way between a full form and static stance training.
Some forms work involves moves comparable to lunges and other calesthenics. Some of those “eccentric” moves aren’t as much fighting moves as they are conditioning moves.
Some TCMA does train hitting things, believe it or not. Wooden Man, Paper bark and palm trees, sand pads, and even good old heavy bags.
I think the fair differentiation is between intensity, and detailed focus of the exercise. Some stance training is rather ‘overall’ in nature, whereas some of the weight training can focus on individual muscles or muscle groups.
So is it better to have an overall focus, or focus on individual groups, one after the other?
It doesn’t sound to me like there’s really anything more being said than he who works hardest is fittest.
Perhaps i missed it,
but has nobody asked what he was doing before he started this programme of stances, push-ups and pull-ups?
If he was on a training regime of bruce lee flicks and lifting beer cans, even playing nintendo would probably improve his performance. Conversely, if he was training extremely hard perhaps a reduced training load could have made a difference, like a tapering for competition.
just some thoughts.
[QUOTE=Christopher M;769466] And what does it matter whether you can “fight out of” the stance that results? Fights don’t happen “out of” a stance in the first place, they happen through the production and management of force – for example, by the methods you’re learning in your martial arts training.[/quote]
We tend to fight as we train. You are training your body to move in a really inefficient way. Traditional stances are too much work when something more mobile and flexible would do the trick…which is ultimately how most people fight anyways.
If you want to make your legs stronger then lift weights or at least move your legs through a full range of motion…not just sitting in a static stance.
If you want to get good at forms then do lots of stance training. If you want to get good at fighting then how is it relevant?
FP
[QUOTE=Christopher M;769222]And if they want to efficiently build leg strenght, they will do squats, lunges and extensions like everyone else.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Fu-Pow;769530]You are training your body to move in a really inefficient way… If you want to make your legs stronger then lift weights or at least move your legs through a full range of motion…not just sitting in a static stance.[/QUOTE]
I think you’re confusing my remarks with someone elses.
Perhaps i missed it,
but has nobody asked what he was doing before he started this program of stances, push-ups and pull-ups?
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The pull ups and pushups were not a core part of the 6 week program, but more what I did in between sessions.
For most of the winter prior I was doing a mix of weights and circute training. Below is the exact routine I did since late last fall to about a month before the 6 week stance program.
1 Bent over rows 12 reps
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bench press 6-8 reps followed by knocking out another 6-8 reps of pushups
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Hollow Holds for 36-54 seconds followed by that one abb excercise where you lay on your back and push your legs up to the ceiling, then down and out towards the wall keeping your feet about 6-12 inches off the ground. I did 12 reps of that.
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A back exercise that looks like you are swimming on the land.
Circute #2
1 Barbell curles 12 reps
2 Benchpress 6-8 reps followed by Triangle pushups 6-8 reps.
3 cross crunchies (Elbow to opposite knee) with a center crunchie in between 12 reps
4 the land swimming exercise from above.
Circute #3
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I do a thing with a wooden dowel that has a weight on it. I roll it up, then down. Its a great forearm workout.
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Bench press followed by Dive Bomb pushups
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Hollow Holds followed by cross crunchies with the feet pointing up to the ceiling, legs locked and together.
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Land swimming exercise 12 reps
Circute #4
Same as number one, only done at 8-9 reps, and the back exercise is Arch Rocks and a back extension exercise 12 reps each. I also use Dumbbells, instead of bar bells. No Bench, just pushups.
Circute #5
Same as #2, only I do Dirty Dog’s for the back exercise (Or some sort of variation followed by kicking backwards from the kneeling position after each one. The Curls are Hammer Curls with Dumbbells. No bench, just Triangle pushups.
Circute number 6 last one;
Same as number 3, only no bench, just dive bomb pushups and I finish with one of the back thereapy exercises from the old routine (usually one of 3 favorites)
I also did a number of various mechanics drills in high stances looking to improve the open close of Kua, core body movement (Like LHBF guys do), and timing of the 9 joints when I move. It was all really slow Tai Chi speed stuff.
For those of you curious about the method to my maddness here, I am doing 6 weeks of structure work (Stances) followed by 6 weeks of mechanics (Drills, and heavy form work), and 6 weeks of skills as my partner should be ready by then. The stance portion is now done.
After that I will be integrating Structure, Mechanics, Skills and conditioning into each week, or even each day as i see fit.
[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;769478]That we need both static and dynamic forms of training to gain our total fitness goals. ( yin yang principle) All training should be done from the inside ( stabilization system) to the outside( movement system).
If the core’s movement system is strong and the stabilization system is weak , the kinetic chain( nervous system, muscle-tendon system and skeletal system) senses imbalances and forces are not being transfered and /or utilized properly. This will result in compensation, synergistic dominance and inefficient movement.
In personal training we use the drawing in manuever which is the samething we do in martial arts training and Qi Gong by tucking the hips up and under.
This helps us find equalibrium, our center of gravity , aligns our skeletal structure, gives us proper posture, connect the du and ren meridians, etc.
If you can not see the value of static stance trainig in your martial arts then you do not know enough about anatomy , physiology,or real martial arts training.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;769478]Muscle Action Spectrum; eccentric ( deceleration, force reduction) concentric ( acceleration, force production) and isometric ( stabilization , dynamic support).
Isometric: exercise in which muscles are briefly tensed in opposition to other muscle or to an immoveable object.
No visable movement with or against resistance. Dynamically stabalizes forces.
Isometric contraction:a muscle maintaining a certain length.
How can a muscle maintain a certain length if it is moving eccentrically or concentrically??[/QUOTE]
applaud.
i suppose this is the base of the argument now, since your a learned individual.
but wait…i thought science was suppose to tell me stance training was completely useless???
whats going on here? is the sky falling?
Isometric: exercise in which muscles are briefly tensed in opposition to other muscle or to an immoveable object.
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What about when they are contracted for a long time?
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;769581]Isometric: exercise in which muscles are briefly tensed in opposition to other muscle or to an immoveable object.
Reply
What about when they are contracted for a long time?[/QUOTE]
it hurts more? 
All training should be done from the inside ( stabilization system) to the outside( movement system).
If you can not see the value of static stance trainig in your martial arts then you do not know enough about anatomy , physiology,or real martial arts training.
If you do see the value please read up on how anatomy and physiology pertain to athletic performance.
Also read up on the types of muscle fibers and the energy systems.
Stance training can have some base level value (for beginners) and some fitness value, but beyond that, I can’t really see any point.
Maybe if your only focus is muscle development, but stance work is for developing a good structural alignment..and THAT has major impact in everything we do, not just fighting.
Just look at the mechanics of a golf swing. Before you even start to move, you are taught the structural alignment of the skelatal system..where the shoulders must be held, where the feet are put, where to place the elbows so you have maximum effectiveness when you move (mechanics)
Now, a Golfer does not need stance work, because he does not have an opponent trying to forceably break his structure, but in a fight we do.
Stance training is a great tool to help you develop a difficult to break structure. Since your structure is the underlying support for your mechanics, it has great bennift no matter what level you are at…it’s so much more than developing simple Quad endurance. It’s really not just for beginners. Infact if you quit stance work as a beginner, then you will never really get the intended benefits.