I notice that in Tat Mau Wong’s staff forms, he grips the staff with both hands’ palms facing downward. Are all Choy Lay Fut staff forms gripped that way?
Also, what is the advantage of that type of grip compared to the lead-hand-grabbing-palm-up way?
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123:
CLF staff forms are broken up into 3 types: single-head staff (held like a spear), double-head staff (both hands palms down utilizing both ends) and single & double head staff (utilizes both methods).
That type of grip refers to a double headed staff form such as bien gwai kwun, loong hahng kuwn & hung gei pang. The single head staff is seen in dai hung kay dan tow kwun and the combination is seen is sheung garp dan tow kwun.
CLF has other staff sets these are the 5 in the Lee Koon Hung lineage.
Peace.
CLFNole:
Thanks for the info. Do you know if other CMA use the double headed approach of holding the staff? I’d like to think it is unique to CLF, but somehow, I doubt it.
What is the Mui Fah Gwun? He calls it Mui Fah Bin Gwai Gwun - same thing as your Bin Gwai Gwun?
thanks again,
123
We hold our staff (long staff) at the butt. The lead hand fingers do not wrap around the pole, they are ‘gripped’ to the sides with the index finger ‘pointing’ straight down the staff. There are obvious times we just grab the staff ie) for wide sweeping power moves.
It is a hard way to learn the staff. We <I>use</I> our staffs as opposed to simply performing sets. If you use the staff in sparring and even 2-person sets, it becomes very apparent why we grip the staffs the way we do - if you like your fingers that is 
nospam.
123:
No unfortunately it is not unique to CLF. Afterall many other styles both northern and southern have staffs and you can only hold it so many ways.
Personally I prefer the single-head style. It is good fo fighting because you keep distance from your opponent and the techniques are very powerful.
Peace.
Nospam:
I’m having a hard time trying to picture how you guys hold your staff. Do you mean that you hold it loosely with the lead hand grip, like a pool stick?
CLFNole:
I tend to prefer the single head way as well. There is an obvious emphasis on the double head way with Tat Mau Wong’s school. Did Lee Koon Hung have a particular preference that you recall?
123
i’d found that the loong haang kwun form have similar movements with the hung gar monkey king staff form . with the exception of the key lun ma strikes .
i know a tibetan white crane form , that is very basic but use the staff like a spear , this form don’t have the hard descendent strikes using in hung gar and choy lay fut . but you grip with the hands in oppositte way .
123:
I cannot answer that question with 100% certainty, however I will say that he did do dai hung kay a lot for demo’s in the US, so I would guess he liked single-head staff as well. Single-head staff with a very long staff is very traditionally southern staff.
Peace.
CLFNole-
I just started learning the Dai Hung Kay Guan. Very cool set, but the foot work is very challenging. Is the sheung garp dan tow kwun more advanced than the Dai Hung set? I don’t think I’ve seen my Sifu do that one.
I’m also curious about the Bagwa Sets. I know our system has Bagua Sam. Do you know this set? I don’t think I’ve ever seen my Sifu teach it. Sifu Michael Punsche also lists a Mui Fah Bagua Sam on his school curriculum. Do you know that set also?
Just curious about some of the upper level sets. I’m getting to the end of my Sifu’s standard curriculum and I’m wondering what the next stage of my training might be like.
I’ve still got a few sets to learn though.
So far I’ve got:
Siu Mui Fah
Sup Ji Kow Dah
Ping Jang
Tuet Jin
Fu-Pow Kuen
Hok Ying Kuen
Block side of the 2-man hand form
Bin Guai Guan
Fu Mei Dan Do
Loong Hung Guan
Cheung Chau Dai Do
Sup Sam Cheung
Dai Pah
Sheung Loong Do
Just started Dai Hung Kay Guan
These are the forms I know I have left to learn:
Right Hand Spear
Sam Ji Guan
Fu Ying Kuen (skipped this to learn Fu-Pow)
Horsebench
2-man staff
Che Kuen Ma (learned it but forgot it)
Bagua Sam
Siu Mui Fah Bagua Sam?
Chor Tau
Chain whip? (not sure if Sifu teaches this one?)
Ching Jong Set
sheung gaap darn tau?
Bak Mo Kuen (not sure if our system has this one?)
Dragon Fan
Sorry kind of got off topic here.
Also, Sifu Michael mentions something called Dat Mo’s special staff or something like that. What the heck is that?
All I can say is **** I got a ways to go…
Peace.
I think Boddidharma’s special staff was maybe that Monk’s Shovel? If it is so, I didn’t realize that was in the CLF curriculum
Fu-Pow:
Wooa, that’s a lot of questions at one time. Dai hung kay kwun is much, much shorter than sheung garp dan kwun. Sheung garp dan is the sup gee kow da of staff sets, very long with a lot of good techniques. Dai hung kay on the surface appears rather easy. It is short but there are a lot of advanced techniques hidden within it. The proper power generation of various moves and the jing that passes through the staff is important. Traditionally this is done with a long, heavy type staff.
I know pak kwa sum kuen. It is a pretty cool form with some stuff not seen in the other sets. No one in the US learned moi fah pak kwa kuen. I have seen it on tape and its ok it has a poon kiu cum jeurng (left) chop choy combo that is not seen in any other form we have.
Bak mo kuen is the longest hand form in our lineage. Lee Koon Hung didn’t teach this one to anyone in the US and I’m not sure if Li Siu Hung remembers it. This was not a widespread form throughout our lineage.
The Tamo special staff that Sifu Michael refers to is actual a cane set from Buk Sil Lum. Lee Koon Hung’s 3rd brother is a Bak Sil Lum sifu who studied under Yim Sheung Mo one of Ku Yu Cheung’s top students.
Peace.
P.S. I think your sifu knows the CLF 3-section staff. This was the old one Lee Koon Hung taught as later on he favored the one passed on to him by Shek Kin. The Shek Kin one is the one that Tat Mau Wong teaches as well as Li Siu Hung and the Hong Kong kung fu brothers.
Fu Pow,
I have learned Mui Fah Baat Gwa Kuen, it is very nice, has a similar pattern to ping Jahng and Baat Gwa Sum Kuen.
And yes we have a Ba Mo Kuen, Li Siu Hung remembers it, I think that is my next form to learn.
Keep training hard!
Joe
whew!
How the heck do you guys remember all these forms! That’s amazing. What’s amazing is that these forms all use similar techniques and elements…
Let me ask you all 2 questions:
2)What is your one and only, most favorite form?
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yutyeesam
The lead hand would grip the staff in a similar fashion as most would, but the fingers do not wrap around the ‘bottom’ part of the pole except for extended lunges and/or wide sweeps.
So, there is a lot of practise required to make sure the hand/finger strength is there, otherwise the pole easily slips from your grasp. The reason for this grip is that it keeps the fingers from being whacked by the opponent’s weapon ie) pole, sword or any other sharp instrument.
If you open your right hand and curl the last 3 fingers into the palm at the 2nd joint (closest to the knuckle - looks like a panther fist), the index (pointing finger) points straight ahead and the thumb is bent at the joint. It ‘sounds’ weird, but if I were to show you in person…no big deal.
Again, this keeps the lead hand fingers out of harms way. You can use the pole to block, deflect, bridge..etc. We train this way because we train to use the staff, not just perform patterns.
nospam.
Yat Yee Sam-
Yes it is very difficult to remember all these forms. If I don’t practice one of them for a while it takes me few times through to get everything straight. I think that there are many in my lineage , myself included, who have resorted to video taping their forms…just in case.
Sifu Mak recommends just what you said, keeping a schedule and focusing on a couple of forms each day.
Another things to keep in is that some of these forms, especially weapon forms, are quite short.
Other styles or branches may have fewer forms but they might be much longer or more repetitive.
Also, each form builds on the next, they may contain many of the same movements. What I’m saying is, it is not like starting from scratch in each form.
The level that I’m at now the foot work and timing seems to be getting more complex.
nospam
I think I understood what the grip is like, but how does it protect your fingers? And isn’t it nearly impossible to develope the grip strong it can hold on to the pole when the opponent tries to make you loose your grip?
CLFnole
What’s your Seung gup dahn gwun like? Do you think it’s the same as ours?
Premier:
I can’t really say because I have never seen your version. On the Chan Family website I have seen pictures of postures in the form shown by Sifu Lane Louie. Some of the techniques look the same and some are kind of similar but done differently (likely because forms are passed down differently from teacher to teacher).
I don’t know about your form but ours is very long. The longest weapon set that we have.
Peace.
CLFNole, Fu pow and Sow Choy,
Hi guys. Hows everything going? Fu pow, I just visited that german site (Fongs kung fu) again, and as CLFNole said, that " Dat Mo`s Krückstock" translate to Da Mo’s Cane. I think is a very old kungfumagazine I saw an article of tat wong and there were some pics of a cane form. I never thought that it was a real form, just thought maybe it was an extra technique maybe from some other style (I have heard before that taekwondo and some tang so do have the cane). Seems pretty cool. So much to learn, so little time :).
I was actually going to ask you guys this before, but never got to do it. Fu Pow mentioned "Dai Pah"and on the fongs kung fu he also have Fook Fu Dai Pah (Tiger Gabel). If im not mistaken, that translates to tiger fork. I did not know we have that form. Is this that 3 pointed fork that you can see on the clfma site? Is it a difficult form to learn?
in the 1999’s november edition of kung fu magazine tat mau wong show the variety of choy lay fut weapons . some of the exotic weapons that he 'd show are the golden coin spear ( gum cheen cheung ) , the half moon monk shovel ( yuet naah chon ) and the caine ( jeung ) .
what type of another exotic weapons exist inside the lkh linaje ?
Hi Eddie-
Dai Pah is Fook Fu Dai Pah. I’m not sure where this form comes from. The neat thing about the tiger fork is that you can spin the end to catch other bladed weapons.
It’s actually a very short form. It’s kind of like having the staff,spear and guan do roled into one weapon and many of the movements are very similar to these other weapons. I’m sure it would only take you a couple class sessions to learn the whole thing.
Could someone descripe the gold coin spear to me? Sifu Mak has a weapon that looks like a staff but has a round coin shaped piece attached to the end with 4 wedge shaped cuts in it. Is this the same thing? I think I’ve seen the half moon monk shovel but I don’t think Sifu mak teaches that one.
There is also another weapon that CLF Nole told me about called something like Fong Ti Wah Gik (sp?). It is a spear with a curvy point (snake’s tongue spear?) with a half crescent shaped blade attached to the side. I’ve never seen Sifu do that one, but we have that one in our weapon rack so I assume he knows it. Probably a very advanced form.
Rain-
I think I’ve already mentioned some of the exotic weapons. CLF has so many weapons and each branch has their own specialty. Do you have my list of forms? It mentions many of them across all branches.
Here some weapons from the list:
Staff Sets
Siu Lum Guan
Bin Guai Seung Tau Guan
Seung Gup Dahn Guan
Poon Lung Seung Tau Guan
Lung Hung Guan
Mui Fa Cheung Guan
Dai Hung Kei Dahn Tau Guan
Hang Jaye Pang
Chuin Lung Da Tau Guan
Chiao-sot Dahn Tau Guan
Ng Dim Mui Fa Guan
Yor Yiao Chi Da Guan
Hau Guan
Spear Sets
Yor Yiao Sup Sam Cheung
Tang Lung (Yow) Cheung
Ngau Lim Cheung
Seh Mau Cheung
Mui Fa Cheung
Dat Mo Guai Cheung
Chahn ? Cheung
Short Bladed Weapons
? ? Dan Do
Siu Mui Fa Dan Do
Bagua Gau ? Dan Do
Mui Fa Dan Do
Bagua Dan Do
Fu Mei Dan Do
Fook Fu Dan Do
Chahn Ma Dan Do (Pudo?)
Siu Mui Fa Seung Do
Sup Ji Mui Fa Seung Do
Chut Sing Mui Fa Seung Do
Bagua Wu Dip Sheung Do
Lung Ying Mui Fa Dan Do
Ching Lung Gim
Da Mo Gim
Gam Lung Gim
Seung Pei Sau
Seung Fu Tau
Sung Lung Gim
Seung Wu Sau Ngau
Sup Ji Mui Fa Dan Do
Long Handled Weapons
Choy Yeung Dai Do
Chun Chau Dai Do
Lahn-Mun-Jaih Do
Gau Wan Dai Do
Sup Ji Dai Pah
Gum Gong Dai Pah
Fook Fu Dai Pah
Fong Tien Wahk Gik
Gam Jung Chahn
Yuet Ngah Chahn
Gau Lung Chah
Chor Tau
Flexible, Etc.
Gam Lung Sin
Mui Fa Bien
Sup Ji Mui Fa Sam Jit Bien
Sam Jit Guan
Sheung Sam Jit Bien
Gau Jit Bien
Fei Do Kuen
Kau Tau Tang
Da Yuet Sin
Fei Lung Sin
Soi Sau Sin
Mui Fa Bien
Seung Teung Choy
Seung Teung Gan
Mixed Weapons
Dan Do Jit Bien
Seung Dan Do
2-man Weapon Sets
Butterfly Swords vs. Buddha’s Warrior Attendant Pole
Bench vs. Pole
Broadsword vs. Spear
Pole vs. Pole
Double Broadsword vs. Bench
Double Broadsword vs. Double Spears
Eighteen-way Pole vs. Eight Diagram Pole
Green Dragon Sword vs. Green Dragon Sword
Three-section Pole vs. Spear
etc.etc.etc.
Good luck learning them all!!!
Hahahahahahaha!!!