Sparring!?!?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Dave C wrote:

“It’s quite possible to do light contact “sparring” to develop your wing chun skills.”

I agree…to a point. But I see value in going beyond that point. You also wrote:

“It’s not necessary at all to hurt your opponent or take a hard hit in order to prove who is the most proficient or skilled.”

It’s not about proving who’s the most proficient - at least it’s not for me. I advocate hard sparring for a different reason: to accustom oneself to the conditions of “reality-fighting” (wherein someone IS hitting hard). The more we simulate reality (physically, mentally, and emotionally)…the better prepared we become.

“You mentioned yourself that wing chun uses precise techniques that are impossible to do with gloves on. Even light fingerless gloves inhibit a person’s sensitivity and ‘listening’ skills…”

Again, to a point - that’s true. But when you go on to say…
“and (light fingerless gloves) promote a very waterdowned version of the art”..

I have to disagree. Not if the sparring is conducted in the manner I’ll describe in a minute. But first - you also wrote:

“When full contact sparring was introduced into karate many of the self defense applications were lost and replaced with the kick-punch art that is predominant today…”

I agree with this, Dave. The process can be reversed, though.

“Like I said I used to enjoy the heck out of padding up and going at it but I dont see that this type of sparring contributes to a persons wing chun skill and in fact actually can diminish a persons ability to use the art for self defense.”

Only if the training is limited to what you describe.

The kind of sparring that I have found through the years to be the most useful and productive has a constant start/stop/drill/ start-again flavor to it.

A competitive exchange takes place for x amount of seconds/minutes until something happens that was particularly GOOD…or particularly BAD (ie. - a major mistake was made). At which point the sparring stops - and the sequence of preceding moves are reviewed and drilled the right way - if a mistake was made.

And if it was something particularly good - it’s reviewed, so that everyone present can see it again…and at a slower pace.

And sometimes the head/face gear and gloves are removed so that the wing chun “subtleties” (ie.- intricate finger or palm strikes to specific vulnerble targets) can be explored and drilled further.

Then the gear goes back on - and we begin again.

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Sparring in a wing chun class---- Limited value,mainly useful to train mental aspects of fighting and get use to contact shock. Majority of time better spent learning how to use the skills that are taught.

Sparring out of class against those that do not practice wing chun-------- PRICELESS if the time is used to lean how to apply wing chun.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

"

"Only if the training is limited to what you describe.

The kind of sparring that I have found through the years to be the most useful and productive has a constant start/stop/drill/ start-again flavor to it.

A competitive exchange takes place for x amount of seconds/minutes until something happens that was particularly GOOD…or particularly BAD (ie. - a major mistake was made). At which point the sparring stops - and the sequence of preceding moves are reviewed and drilled the right way - if a mistake was made.

And if it was something particularly good - it’s reviewed, so that everyone present can see it again…and at a slower pace."

Hi Victor,
What you wrote above sounds like a good method to spar. And I do agree that the student has to learn how to function when under extreme stress like one would face in a street situation.

In my old goju club our tests were very long and stressful because the real test was to see how a person performed when under pressure.

One thing I am curious about is how can you perform a full power wing chun technique such as a spade hand to the jaw without seriously hurting someone? Its not that I think sparring is a bad thing, because I do see its usefullness, I just question how it can be done without serious injury?

Dave C

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Dave C:

We have customized a martial art helmet by putting a hockey cage facemask on the front of it…it contains quite a few very thin horizontal and vertical metal bars - vision is not really impaired - and no part of the face/jaw can actually be hit…although shock waves will definitely be felt.

And the Century Brand gloves we use do have some protection for the striker on the inside of the hand - if he were to throw palm strikes at such a helmet/mask.

It works.

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Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Dave C:

We have customized a martial art helmet by putting a hockey cage facemask on the front of it…it contains quite a few very thin horizontal and vertical metal bars - vision is not really impaired - and no part of the face/jaw can actually be hit…although shock waves will definitely be felt.

And the Century Brand gloves we use do have some protection for the striker on the inside of the hand - if he were to throw palm strikes at such a helmet/mask.

It works. [/B]

Very interesting, will have to try it sometime. I do agree that you fight like you practice so the more realism the better.
Dave c

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I agree with Dave C and some of what Victor has said, obviously if the stress and pressure is at a higher level in the class environment( therefore more reality) then the actual self defence benefit is better for the student. The question is how much sparring is required after the skill and attributes have already been developed. Does one have to continually spar at the same pace and frequency at this level of skill? Early in my WC training the instructor at that time(who is no longer with the association) had us sparring one another and himself. Since WC was my first serious attempt at Martial arts training I had never sparred before, so I found it to be both a learning and “frightening” experience, especially when I sparred with the instructor. He was much more advanced in WC than I and had previous TKD experience, plus he loved to fight and had that “killer” instinct in him. He knocked the wind out of me(and others) quite a few times and IMO used this as a way to make us respect him more. After he was kicked out of the association, we practiced more group sparring drills where it was 1 against 4 or 5, and more random Chi-sao and perception drills. I know that sparring is not for everyone, and since IMO Wing Chun is a more effective MA, this type of practice is not absolutely neccessary to make one a effective fighter.

   Once a person has the WC technique in them, through forms, chi-sao, light sparring drills, then IMO perception abilities are the key to actual combat/self-defence ability.  I know for myself that if I was attacked I would not allow myself to just get the snot beat out of me, my body would respond automatically(unless it was a sucker punch, which can be landed on anyone, since it is not seen).  WC gives the average person the best tools to make the outcome of a confrontation more in their favor than most any other MA, IMHO.

sihing

47

Y’all dont want me to get started on this one…lol.

But I love anerlichs quote about not wanting to spar LOL.

Good thing is healthy debate will change some attitudes about “fighting” and “sparring”. Now let me go and perfect my SLT in the mirror to improve my fighting ability.

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Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Y’all dont want me to get started on this one…lol.

Didn’t we go around in much the same circles about this time last year?:rolleyes:

Bill

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I’ve yet to see a pro golfer, tennis player, snooker/pool player or anyone else whose livelihood depends on their ability to perform physically who didn’t undertake constant match practice. We’ve all heard of guys who were in hospital, POW camps, etc. who couldn’t train, relied on visualisation etc. and still had game, but they are exceptional, and I’d bet if they had the choice they would still have done the match practice.

Why MA (performance, not image) is somehow different escapes me.

You might be able to maintain skill by doing drills, etc., which will make you real good at doing drills. If you want to maintain fighting skill, you’ll maintain it a lot easier, and find it a lot easier to improve, if you spar regularly, IMNSHO.

You might theorise that once you develop perceptual skills, they will remain forever, but how would you KNOW unless you test them regularly in a live environment?

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Didn’t we go around in much the same circles about this time last year?

Yeah, the merry go round keeps spinning, different kids get on and off. Someone new might have an insight, someone else might have had an experience that changed their view.

Not such a bad thing IMO.

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Didn’t we go around in much the same circles about this time last year?

Bill

Same circles and much the same POVs.

Verrry interesting? Not.

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Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]Didn’t we go around in much the same circles about this time last year?

Bill

Same circles and much the same POVs.

Verrry interesting? Not. [/B]

Then why bother if you find this thread boring? Perhaps you would like to enlighten us? I for one am taking a new perspective on sparring in wing chun thanks to the discussion with Victor so I find this discussion productive. I would be very interested to hear your pov and your reasoning behind it…after all we all dont have your years and years and years of experience ;).

Dave c

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"Good thing is healthy debate will change some attitudes about “fighting” and “sparring”. (KWJ)

I believe that too.

“Now let me go and perfect my SLT in the mirror to improve my fighting ability.” (KWJ)

SLT’s great right before chi sao, anyway. But then what?

SPARRING!!!

"The merry go round keeps spinning, different kids get on and off. Someone new might have an insight, someone else might have had an experience that changed their view. " (Anerlich)

Here’s some of those “kids” coming right now…

“I for one am taking a new perspective on sparring in wing chun thanks to the discussion with Victor so I find this discussion productive.” (Dave C)

You had an open mind which was conducive to a good free flow of ideas - kinda like some good chi sao!

“So I found it to be both a learning and ‘frightening’ experience, especially when I sparred with the instructor. He was much more advanced in WC than I and had previous TKD experience, plus he loved to fight and had that ‘killer’ instinct in him. He knocked the wind out of me (and others) quite a few times and IMO used this as a way to make us respect him more. After he was kicked out of the association, we practiced more group sparring drills…”

(James Roller…sihing)

Now this is just a wild guess - but maybe your first instructor’s selfish, egotistical, bullying attitude made a very negative first impression upon you…about sparring.

Time to reconsider?

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Quote: Anerlich
“I’ve yet to see a pro golfer, tennis player, snooker/pool player or anyone else whose livelihood depends on their ability to perform physically who didn’t undertake constant match practice. We’ve all heard of guys who were in hospital, POW camps, etc. who couldn’t train, relied on visualisation etc. and still had game, but they are exceptional, and I’d bet if they had the choice they would still have done the match practice.”

since when are we making a living at this WC (unless you are a professional at it which means a full time instructor) or since when are we competing or fighting against the world’s best? If I was in prison and had to defend myself on a daily basis then yeah I would practice allot more and maybe even try some sparring again, but since I’m a law abiding citizen that’s not the case. I remember watching an interview of Emin Boztepe, and I actually had to agree with what he said regarding the subject being talked about. He was referring to what type of situations the average person would have to face on the street and if WC is effective enough for it. Obviously he thinks WC is effective but he also said that to face a professional fighter one should be a professional Martial Artist, which to me means one that lives and breath’s the art, one the generates income from it and one that leads/guides others in the progression through the art. Most people will never reach levels like that unless the dedication and desire is there. As a teacher you should have a greater knowledge than the students so that each and every question/scenario can be answered or dealt with. The average student learning the art, that has no ambition to ever teach it to another, does not need this higher level of understanding. All they need to know is how the technique is applied, the variables involved and why it is the way it is, and practice.

  I guess it all depends on what you think you will be facing on the street.  If you are in an area of the country/city where violent crime is at a high rate, then yeah maybe it’s needed to prepare more for a possible encounter, but I myself live in a city of almost 1 million people and feel safe enough walking down the street.  Allot of protecting oneself is what you do before the confrontation even begins, as I'm sure allot of us already know that are on this forum, if you look like and act like a victim you will become one.  I've learned a few tricks that never even give me the opportunity to get into a confrontation.  For example, when in a room full of people I usually ignore all the men their, beside my male friends, I do not acknowledge their existence therefore no "bad vibes" are given out to anyone of them.  Most guys check out who the competition is and then start the old stare em down routine, which for the most part is what starts the confrontation right off the bat.  Also I find that when one has learned how to defend themselves, others recognize this somehow in that person, through the confidence the exibit or the way the hold themselves. Think of this senario, the house robber has two houses to choose from, one with the alarm and one without.  Which one should the smart robber choose?  The one that's easier to get into I would assume, lol.  Same with combat, people are always sizing up one another, if the guy thinks its going to be a hard fought battle with one that may have some MA/fighting abilities then he will probably pick another.  Simple logic I think.

Victor, I forgot the end of the story with the instructor I used to have to spar with all the time. Before he got the boot, I will say that the beatings we took from him got less and less severe, up to the point that we even started to give as much as we took. At this point the instructor stopped sparring with us good guys and tried the same thing with the juniors below us. Yes it maybe be more of a neccessity to spar at the junior levels so they can learn a few lesson, but when the lessons have been learned do you have to keep on “reading the same book”? Of course stopping all training will greatly decrease your combat ability, but usually when one has trained in the arts for a long period of time it becomes a part of them and their lives, habits are developed, and one learns smarter ways to sustain skill levels.

sihing

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Comments on dave c post in brackets_

Then why bother if you find this thread boring?

((Didnt bother much. Pointed (quite briefly)to the repetitious cycles and the POVs. Similar to Matrix’s observation))

Perhaps you would like to enlighten us? I for one am taking a new perspective on sparring in wing chun thanks to the discussion with Victor so I find this discussion productive.

((Forum discussions can influence…))

I would be very interested to hear your pov and your reasoning behind it…after all we all dont have your years and years and years of experience .

((sarcasm can be amusing but does not necessarily deserve a response.Hence-that and the comment on experience with a smiley attached-ignored.
To others-
Sparring with gloves early can arrest- listening skills and wing chun
motion development. With good wing chun development one can adapt to many things including gloves. Involves careful attention
to the individuals stage of development and in the ability to make the right adjustments for the right reasons in positioning, moving, stancing among other things..
Some sparring can overcome some folk’s fear of contact.However-
One can work on contact without gloves as well-again depending on development including self control.. General repetition or advocacy imo of “spar” misses the nuances. Without a trained and knowledgeable observer and sharing observer present- sparring can reinforce bad habits for lots of folks without teaching new long lasting skills.))

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“Without a trained and knowledgeable observer and sharing observer present - sparring can reinforce bad habits for lots of folks without teaching new long lasting skills.” (Yuanfen)

True. That’s why sparring on a regular basis (with and without gloves and other protective gear)…should be supervised by a trained and skilled instructor.

There is no substitute for hard sparring - if one wants to train as realistically as possible. And HARD sparring must include protective gear and gloves in order to avoid injuries.

There’s no mystery here.

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Dave c,
It’s not so much boring as non-productive. The point is that it’s the same people arguing the same points with each other. I’m glad you’re finding it useful. However, my comments are no more or less valid than yours.
As for enlightenment, there is only self-enlightenment. It would be best if you look inward for that. However I can offer one suggestion, lighten up on the sarcasm, it doesn’t serve you

Bill

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Originally posted by yuanfen
Without a trained and knowledgeable observer and sharing observer present- sparring can reinforce bad habits for lots of folks without teaching new long lasting skills.))
Maybe I’m wrong, but I think this applies equally to chi sao or any other form of training.

Bill

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Maybe I’m wrong, but I think this applies equally to chi sao or any other form of training.

Bill

In varying degrees yes. One can punch a wall bag on ones own after being shown. Some other things as well.

One has to be one’s own person- you have to stand on your own feet. Buta good and competent guide can save one so much grief…
especially in the early years.

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Martial arts is supposed to have EVERYTHING to do with Self Defense…and most (if not all) martial arts were designed to be real-fight self defense arts…ORIGINALLY. (Including Wing Chun).

Interesting … How much time do you devote to improving your technique in the 100 yard dash? The 440? Hurdling? The steeplechase? Which self-defense martial arts train (or historically trained) these skills?

If running should be the first option when confronted with a scenario where martial art training might prove useful, then it stands to reason that the practitioner studying the “… martial arts [that] were designed to be real-fight self defense arts …” would train to improve their technique in sprinting and/or negotiating objects while running. It would be, at the very least, as important as a good punch.