Sparring: Why Wait?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

my school’s approach.

sparring . .. structure … reality.

spar slow and with power.

new students are taught to spar this way their first class. of course they only have a couple things to work with, but that’s what the rest of the class is their for … guidance. you are taught to feel your entire body moving through every motion . .. proper structure will still pack a slow moving punch with power. this will develope good form, root, fluency, sensitivity, power generation (might be another argument but i believe mechanics and structure are essential to a solid hit), and to some degree adaptaion.

as you feel you are progressing go as fast as you want when the teacher’s not looking.

this will get you used to taking a hit, and playing it off when sifu comes around, and will act as a testing ground for your slow sparring and other work.

when you have actually made progress the advanced students will beat the sh!t out of you every so often. starts with slight slaps to the side of the head and eventually you will get to the point where your gonna get your a$$ floored if you’re not paying attention. this is where you learn to fight with the system.

at least this is they way i have seen it develope for me in my two years at class. i could definatley be missing allot of important points as i still suck really bad.

42

GDA, what style are you learning, or is it a MMA school?

43

so wait a minute

so thowing a single, repetitive strike that you know the younger student has been shown a response to is sparring? Or is it only sparring if you wear gear?

In our school we throw light punchs aimed at hitting the junior student if they do not respond properly. We stop these early punchs short/tap them very lightly, but they are headed right at them.

example of a first day session : Oi Moon Choi (outer gate punching) Student A (the junior) is shown the basic stance (50/50 wieght, adduction ect) then the seinion student (B) stands within arms reach, and directly in front of student A and guides his arm into a basic punch (elbow in, fist relaxed, coming down the centerline ect) and how if I throw a similar punch his punch can deflect it on the outside of my arm.

now student B throsw 5-6 punchs like that on each side, making sure student a’s punch is correct and that b’ punch, if not deflected would connect. You would then have student A throw the inital punch while student B defects it.

Is this sparing?

44

Oddermensch - I think that is what some of us are talking about for beginners, controlled sparring type environment, wher eyou are learning the application of a technique first hand. It can be defined in many ways though and I think some of that is up to the individual.

45

cheers red5angel.

oddermensch,

i don’t know without seeing what you’re describing. as red5 said, the definition of sparring could vary. but i’m suggesting that what makes it sparring is the unknown quotient, in terms of timing, range, etc.

so if one person is standing at a fixed range using a fixed rhythm, etc., i suppose i’d call that a drill. if the range, timing, and so on were more freestyle and contact was made, i’d begin to call that sparring. controlled, directed sparring. but sparring, all the same.

stuart b.

46

I stand corrected, Drill is a much better term.

47

well, clearly there’s a lot of crossover. and it’s somewhat a question of semantics.

the point, i suppose, is how soon new students are introduced to steadily less structured environments.

stuart b.

48

i would call that drilling, but it’s just a term.

redangel . .. it’s hard to say anymore. i used to say i did a traditional style but he more i hear the mma guys talk about their class the more and more it sounds like mine. (aside from the constant conditioning that makes you puke … i nearly passed out once on a conditioning day … and got kinda pukey on another .. . but i never actually threw up .. the stance training and what not was killer but the cardio wasn’t nearly that bad)

my sifu really hates the mma fad though he’s cross trained himself and offers us what he’s learned from other systems. however he refuses to call anything grappeling. “ITS GROUNDFIGHTING.” i still call it grappeling to get a rise out of him. he says traditional is the way to go, but the first things we learn are boxing and muithai strikes followed by some basic jujitsu holds. it’s a private school so there aren’t new students coming in all the time, but whenever one does class will be geared towards conditioning for a month or two. allot of pad work and medicine ball work and such.

the three main styles in our system are wudang, pukulan, and juijistsu but we also work on allot of things from other styles from time to time. i see this as crosstraining, but i don’t think sifu does.

when i asked him what all we study he said to me “you do wudang. that is enough for you.”

49

ironically, i refer to it as a ‘sparring drill.’

and the debate rages on. :slight_smile:

50

GDA - Sounds like MMA to me, no offense to yout sifu!

LOL Apoweyn

51

ok

good we call that a drill also.

for some semantics :
drill - repetitive known controled stikes and locks meant to teach a basic skill or idea.

Flow dril - nearly the same but allows for a constant flow of techs -ie a lop sau drill or single sticking hands.

“triange” - an exercise that sends out three peole one in the “middle” has to deal with a consistant barrage of un coriographed attacks from the other two one after another after another, with the intenity ramped up as skill grow. (note it takes a few months to begin doing this drill)

sparring- the student has sufficent control, footwork and handskill to “pad up” and face another styleist in a semi controled situation. start not touching, begin and go for two or three minutes.

in our school we use that progession, drills, flow drills, triangles hen sparing. with forms and conditioning throught.

just wanted to clarify. :smiley:

52

In my kung fu class sparring doesn’t happen until you are well into your training. Like a couple of years into the program. I started to train with a Jeet Kune Do/ street fighting type class because I felt that I didn’t trust my skills. It was a good thing I didn’t trust my skill at that time. I had very little skill that would help me survive a fight. The JKD class put me into controlled sparring after a couple of weeks once I got the stances and punches down. As far as my kung fu training goes I trust my Sifu’s reason for waiting until we spar but I decided not to delay learning to defend myself. I am a laid back and calm person but living in redneck country at the University of Alabama means the chances aren’t entirely low that some heathen might start some crap. Besides having knowledge in self-defense, sparring is my passion.

53

“I trust my Sifu’s reason for waiting until we spar but I decided not to delay learning to defend myself”

sounds like you don’t really trust him?

If learning to defend your self and sparring are what you want then why are you still training in your sifu’s program.

What is that you hope to acquire that you don’t have now?

How would you rate the students that have been there for a while and do spare against the people you train with now?

Only asking out of curiosity :wink:

54

Scared away…

When I was 14 (in the Philippines), I started training in Shorin Ryu Shorinkan Okinawan Karate Do. There was no A/C, and you guys can imagine the heat and humidity 11 mos. out of the year. It was very hard training and many people left just because of the kihon (basics) and conditioning. A lot of them wound up joining other classes on and off-base where things were a lot “nicer”. Kumite (sparring) culled the herd even more. TKD, Goju Ryu, and other styles that practiced at our school eventually averaged about 20 people per class. We never had more than 6-8.

I tried to get an acquaintance to join the class after he saw us training one day, and he seemed very enthusiastic about his intro to karate. My sensei often tested the mental and physical mettle of the new students by making them do some light sparring with the senior mudansha (non-Black Belt students) and himself. He decided that since I knew this cat that I should spar with him. He had only been in the class for about a month, but already his basics were getting tighter. My sensei reassured the new guy that I would take it easy on him, and looked at me sternly to get his point across.

We squared off and I told the guy that I would just dodge, parry and touch him. He came at me like a screaming banshee! I stepped to the side and let a controlled mawashi geri (roudhouse) touch his ribs. His momentum must have added extra force to the blow, 'cause he doubled over. I rushed over to him to see if he was alright, and he slapped my hand away. I was like “sorry bruh”, and he jumped up and got into his fighting stance. My sensei chastised him for lacking control and told him that you have to evaluate your opponent before throwing yourself into the fray. He looked at me and said “Softly, now”!

“Hajime!” (begin). The dude came running at me hands a-whirling like Shaq, no form, no control. I blocked and touched him with a controlled backfist to the side of the head. At this he threw down his gloves, cursed me for being an A-Hole, and stormed out of the dojo. He never returned. My sensei explained that the kid was not mentally equipped to be a karateka. He went on to say that he should have picked this up. I found out later that this guy, who was from a rival breakdancing crew, was realy there to rough my brother and me up. Weird. He told me at school that karate hurt too much, and he wasn’t into unnecessary pain. I explained that I hit him as soft as possible and that it was his furious charges that really hurt him. He dismissed me and told me to get away from him. That seems to happen to me a lot.

Anyway, with practice of the basics (for 3 months, minimum), kata/forms training, and other traditional and modern training devices, control and fighting knowledge is achieved. Peoples preconceived notions about what is fighting and what is not will often be totally altered. Most folks just don’t get into any real physical confrontations in their life, and if and when they do they often rely on aggression, athleticism, luck or all 3. Without proper training a novice can hurt themselves and others. For MMA or combat sports that’s cool, their aim is to brutalize the body and brain. In MAs the aim is multifaceted, with fighting being a byproduct of your training. Does that make sense?

After that incident my sensei would make sure he played “catch me if you can” with the new students, until he felt their physical and mental training was at the appropriate level to engage in free-fighting. So sparring straight off isn’t necessarily a good thing. In fact sparring gives many martial artists a false sense of real world confidence. It does teach ma-ai/ma or fighting distance, and footwork, but it doesn’t necessarily teach one how to preserve his life. Most people will never have to fight or use what they know in the real world, so sparring is more of a fun time, where with sweat, techs can be polished at pseudo-fighting speed. This is all just my honest opinion, and others will disagree. Cool. Whateva’! I’m giving you my take on the free-sparring controversy, that’s it.

55

But couldn’t you call “catch me if you can” a sparring drill?

“In fact sparring gives many martial artists a false sense of real world confidence. It does teach ma-ai/ma or fighting distance, and footwork, but it doesn’t necessarily teach one how to preserve his life.”

Very true, when trying to preserve your life (self-defense) the worst thing you could do is get into a “fight” or spar with a thug. The longer you fight someone on the street the more chance something could go wrong. It seems obvious, but I’ve seen people sell videos with exactly that on it.

56

My views, if you don’t get in the flight time during your training, how are you going to know if your specific techniques, methods and athletic abilities are going to hold up under stress.

The answer, you aren’t.

I say start as soon as possible under progressive and controlled conditions, combine it with all your other training tools, whatever those may be, and make it a self study to get to your goal.

Be that goal to see if you can work elements of your system into the sparring, to research and bring parts of your systems principles into function, or to just be an all in fighter.

57

I certainly don’t mind if someone has a question on what I mean. I admit the sentence “I trust his reasons but blah blah” does sound like I was politely second guessing my Sifu’s reason but I really don’t. He believes in forming a solid foundation before sparring for safety reasons. Students don’t injure themselves by practicing techniques they don’t know 100% and students don’t learn to fight until they are sure to be trusted with information that could hurt others. Those are good reasons, they preserve safety. I am the second youngest member of the kung fu class so my situation is a bit different. Alot of the students are late twenties - early thirties and a few are older. I’ve heard statistics that most violence is geared towards 15-24 year olds. Could be wrong on that one but from my experience I would say that I, a young college student that attends social activities where drunk rednecks are present, would be more likely to get into a confrontation than a 9-5 business employee in his late twenties. I also work at a hotel that gets some routy folks. In my traditional kung fu class I learn more than physical techniques. We study bookwork and work together. There are many aspects that I love from my kung fu class. However, I enjoy sparring and feel it necessary to train it now. The instructors from both of my classes are all great friends and that is how I got involved with the JKD class. Its not uncommon for the two classes to work together and teach together. When I showed interest in cross training both classes asked me what did I hope to gain from it and when I told them they both understood my point of view and had no problem with it. But I am quite often full of bull shi.t and respect and welcome being told when my opinions or thoughts might be flawed. I’ve learned alot and changed many of my opinions after someone has given me a new angle to view it.