Sparring: Why Wait?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Why wait 4 to 6 months to start sparring? Heck why wait at all?

My opinion on why not to wait.
I’ve found it refreshing to work with untrained people, shows where I’ve grown too accustomed to my fellow students. I’ve also found that instead of building bad habits it actually helps the learning of proper movement and technique, (sooner or later you get sick and tired of getting hit). I believe it’s also good to learn that in the martial arts nothing is free, if I want to hit you I’ll more than likely get hit at least some myself.

So what are your reasons for not crossing hands (dynamic sparring not drills which have their place) from the start.

I posted this on another board here and outside of MerryPrankster, Old Jong, Sharkey and Jas Bourne the answers were rather rude. Some folks take the concept of little ideas a bit too far! :smiley:

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Hey.

I agree. Why wait? Let’s give all new Students a nice sharp weapon and let them tyke it out.
Winner gets to learn unarmed Combat(if he still got hands), and we can sell Videos of the sparring.
Just kidding of course. :smiley:

Most style wait with sparring until the student has learned essential basics & principles and has also shown a certain amount of control/mastery when executing the moves/attacks.

Also while learning basics, the Body gets stronger and healthier which are needed when sparring.
While I agree that it is boring to do basics for a long time, it also helps to reduce the numbers of Students.
Just some random thoughts.

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A couple of good sparring sessions will also thin the ranks!:wink:

4

Rogue.

No disagreement there.

But many Schools/styles feel that a student needs to master a few basics like rolling and falling correctly b4 getting bounced around by senior students to prevent injuries.

Also like somebody else mentioned, what will your new students be sparring in:
1.) For sure not the style he hasn’t learned yet.
2.) Street brawling.
3.) or some imagined moves copied from movies and Video Games.
4.) maybe “Fight like a Girls Club” style

Sparring is a tool to help you refine MA skills that you have learned, and is not supposed to be a competition between students or free for all. (Even though it might look like it)

Sparring will show your flaws in your aquired skills, the student than is supposed to work those flaws out of their routine(Form, training, drills,etc) and than retest their skill in a new sparring session.

Drills, 2-man exercises and sparring are all there so that you can check yourself and the execution of your moves.

Just my 2 Yen worth.

5

I think it’s like saying to someone " write a book " when they can’t write. Sure, they can hold a pen, but they don’t know how to right.

Or give them a fishing rod and telling to go catch a fish. They can have a half assed attempt, but if you gave them lessons on how to catch fish for a while, then sent them into the big wide world, they’d fair much better.

Or something.

So, they HAVE the tools which they are to use (arms/legs etc) and they need to be taught how to use them.

Cheers

6

yea man. it’s all about givin the person the right tools first. footwork, connection, weapons, etc.

7

Boy do you guys over complicate things. Did you learn to walk by having someone teach you the theory? No you tried to stand and failed, after a while you could stand. Then you tried to walk and failed, but on your own you learned how.

We’ve found many benefits to light sparring (learning to stand) early. Here are a few.

Get’s the student over the fear hump, good for their cardio and let’s them realize early what the art is for.

Benefits for the senior students are control so neither gets hurt, and learning to deal with the unexpected.

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these are good benefits. but one thing it WON’T teach the new students is how to use their respective martial art effectively, efficiently and correctly, which is bottom line.

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I think a student should have a decent structure from stance work, a working idea of a few techniques, and adequate safety skills (hand defense, falling, yielding, etc.) After that, let them go.

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There is also another slight problem that can occur with sparring to early.

If a “newish” Student wins a sparring session, he might now feel ready to take the next guy in a Bar or Pub on.

Look at what happened to the “shodan” and it’s perceived level in JMA.
I see the same danger with sparring too early.

IMHO, it is always better to let the student think that his skill is lower than what it actually is. :wink:

As with everything, the golden rule is:
“Everything in it’s own time and with due balance and moderation.”

11

But in the same sense you then have a person there standing with all these strikes and blocks that he/she has been trained in for months and months and you throw an actual live shot at them and they eat it and eat it cause they don’t know what to expect. Would you be more prepared for actual contact by A. Learning 50 techniques over six months to a year that when it comes down to it you ony use three or four of them or B. Spar light get used to getting hit and fist just in your face once a week for six months to a year

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Then again a few dings, bruises and shots to the gut will usually be enough to take the fight out of most would be brawlers. Kind of brings home the reality of what you’re doing.

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Brad.

Agreed.

But than each sparring session should be supervised by the Instructor and appr. to the level of the student.

I see too many schools skimp on the fighting/sensitivity drills and get the Guys too quickly into sparring, and that, IMO, gives the result you posted.

Most Guys want to go in there and start rolling rather than do boring Forms, Drills, etc and too many Schools have started to accomodate them.

Said that I still like the progression we do in TCC (from my experience):
Push Hands
Sparring Hands
Free form sparring.

Have fun all.

P.S.: Glad this Thread been moved to the Main Board.

14

“If a “newish” Student wins a sparring session, he might now feel ready to take the next guy in a Bar or Pub on.”

The student should be taught that sparring is a learning process and not a thing to win. When I started at my present school I was ripping up the place with my Muay Thai skills, or so I thought. After a few weeks those black belts stopped pulling those cut kicks and punches and let me know what was what.

"But than each sparring session should be supervised by the Instructor and appr. to the level of the student. "
100% agreement!!!

While sparring is important we spend as much time working forms. It’s 1/3 sparring, 1/3 forms and 1/3 basics. None of which is more important than the other.

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It wasn’t moved he just made another thread.
Didn’t they flame you enough in the WC forum rogue?

"I think it’s like saying to someone " write a book " when they can’t write. Sure, they can hold a pen, but they don’t know how to right. "

**** sharky, I wrote like a half page comparring it to white water kayaking on the one in the WC forum, and you say the same thing in like 2 sentances.

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It’s a dirty job but someone has to do it!:smiley:

Anyway getting flamed on the WC board is too easy. Ask a question, get a flame.

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Originally posted by rogue
The student should be taught that sparring is a learning process and not a thing to win.

100% agree.

I also think that each sparring session shoul be followed by a discusion session between the people that sparred, the Instructors and possible any othre Parties that watched.

Otten the faults perceived by the Student and Teacher differ.

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Sparring why wait.

So why learn anything at all other then what you know already.
Most CMA systems are based on attaining or developing higher level skills.

In gen the higher level the art the longer it takes to acquire the skill to use it. To suggest otherwise, means that one has never met some one with high level skills. for the most part they are not devloped through sparring.

i think with out good basics, developing the fundamental skills though getting pounded seems kind of counter productive.

of couse some just might like getting pounded :slight_smile:

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bamboo leaf on the negative

you also get people who do thier art alot, who get torn from thier root in combat by one less experienced but more aggressive:)

Thiers a balance,

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hey!

Anyway getting flamed on the WC board is too easy. Ask a question, get a flame

you called that a flame? Rouge I thought you were made of sterner stuff. :slight_smile:

anyway on topic,

A couple of good sparring sessions will also thin the ranks!

and thats a good thing? Many people who learn a MA do so to learn to fight. The stress testing your skills must happen periodicly, but to start so early! What skills are you testing?

Boy do you guys over complicate things. Did you learn to walk by having someone teach you the theory? No you tried to stand and failed, after a while you could stand. Then you tried to walk and failed, but on your own you learned how.

hmmm i will start a new thread over on the WC about this but briefly…I dont speak for any other CMA (or MA for that matter) but WC is not a natural way to fight. What I mean is yes that process “taught” you how to walk, run, eat and **** but it won’t teach you Wing Chun, it can’t teach you Kung Fu. It can refine it.

Or so I was taught.

While sparring is important we spend as much time working forms. It’s 1/3 sparring, 1/3 forms and 1/3 basics. None of which is more important than the other.

yeah thats about right.

And one thing I think can be left out alot is a WC maxim “a weak body must begin with strength training”

when we begin we pull people around and off balance as part of our basic self defense. It helps people get over (somewhat) the fear of being off balance and in close/ haveing someone in your face.

you also get people who do thier art alot, who get torn from thier root in combat by one less experienced but more aggressive

thats so sad :frowning:

I’ll get on that other tread soon, hope this post isn’t to hat for ya, I am in Texas, but its realy love this time of year, if you like floods and tornados of course. :smiley:

PS, OT & from rouges profile

From now on, enemies who are associated with terrorist activity will not cohabit the globe with the United States of America

hey but friends that engage in terrorist activity are still cool right? :wink: