Learn through Sparring

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

When I taught my class, I asked my students to spar on the 1st day. They might not know what to do, but they could learn to move their head away from a incoming punch, and raised their leg to block a incoming kick. That would be good enough if they could do that on their 1st day.

Even if the round house kick exist in the Longfist system. It is not part of the solo drills training. One day in the sparring, I used a non-perfect foot sweep. It didn’t sweep my opponent down but it hurt my opponent’s leg big time. That day was the day that I found out how to use my round house kick.

I also found out that if I had right leg forward and my opponent had left leg forward (mirror stance), a hook punch could give me a perfect set up for my “hip throw” and I didn’t even have to spin my body. Before that day, I didn’t even know without body spinning, my hip throw could be possible.

We can learn a lot from the sparring that we can’t learn from our solo form training. I just don’t understand why some CMA teachers don’t use sparring as a valid teaching tool. The teacher can always gradually introduce his style principles one at a time into the sparring training. If you train this way, in two years, you will have some good Taiji fighters, XingYi fighters, Bagua fighters, Longfist fighters, … What’s your opinion on this?

2

Two big concerns people have is;

Students developing bad habits

and

Students hurting each other/selves.

I would hate to be put up against some uncontrolled newb off the street my first day.

But not a terrible Idea if you can make it work.

Boxers start sparring early.

3

I spar the new people on their first day. Once I know what they can handle (or if they work me over :o ), I rotate them in with the others.

4

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1034948]I spar the new people on their first day. Once I know what they can handle (or if they work me over :o ), I rotate them in with the others.[/QUOTE]

I used to make 2 circles. The person in the inside circle spars with the person in the outside circle. 1 minute later, the inside circle rotate so everybody will get a new partner.

5

is there anyone here who does not spar, never has sparred, only does forms but claim to be able to fight? whether its true or false…

does anyone here disagree with sparring?

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[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1034948]I spar the new people on their first day. Once I know what they can handle (or if they work me over :o ), I rotate them in with the others.[/QUOTE]

i think this is a very good method. as the teacher/coach you get to determine hands on where you feel they would best jump into the fray of class.

7

I spar the new people on their first day. Once I know what they can handle (or if they work me over ), I rotate them in with the others.

answer here…

8

I have done it both ways. I think that sparring early on, even light is kind of humiliating for students. It’s better to wait if you ask me. There are other cost benefits but the humiliation factor is the biggest to me.

9

Through sparring I learned that I couldn’t actually throw(and land) a connected concentrated blow like I did against the bag or during two person drilling done during the initial years. Through sparring I learned that forms are not actually good stamina building tools. Through sparring I learned that having adequate power is more important than having better technique. I consider these all great lessons to have learned from sparring.

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[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1034990]Through sparring I learned that …[/QUOTE]

Through sparring I learned that “3 steps 1 punch (I call it running punch)” is as important as “1 step 3 punches”.

I also believe that we should isolate boxing, kickboxing, and wrestling in the early stage. After people feel comfortable about it, we then move toward the more integrated Sanshou stage.

We have to be honest to ask ourselves a question, “Do we truly enjoy body pain?” I can’t speak for others but for myself, if I don’t feel body pain for a period of time, I don’t feel comfortable because I don’t know I can still take body pain or not. That kind of thinking just scare me. If I can feel body pain daily, I know that my body is not soft yet. That can give me a lot of self-confidence.

May be “learning through sparring” do require this kind of “enjoy body pain” attitude. Even today, the 1st thing in my class is to let my student to round house kick at my leg, my body, and use his arm to hit on my arm as hard as he likes. After 20 minutes, I’ll feel as young as a 20 years old again.

11

imo there are 2 types of martial artists. there are those that like contact and there are those that dont.

there are a lot of people that start martial art training for reasons other than fighting.

i cannot say this is wrong or anything for other people, but for me this is wrong. if i dont want to fight at all i will go learn gymnastics or dancing or something. but i want to get in the mix right away when i am going to go learn to fight.

if i go to learn to fight and you say ‘sorry you dont get to spar at all for 1year’ i will leave.

12

Is this another take on the academic vs practical argument.

One idea is that you take a complex motion or activity, and you break it down into granular incremental pieces. Then you learn small simple pieces perfectly, then you combine the pieces and refine, adding more and more pieces together until you have learned the full activity. Of course it takes longer to get to the full comprehensive activity, because there are so many building blocks to put into place, and they are all progressively more difficult. But when they do come into place, the skill is instant.
Now, if combat isn’t addressed in your training fundamentals, it certainly won’t just appear, its just a high level combination of fundamental skills. Maybe, this is the way you learn math?

The other, as you mentioned in your post, is the apprentice, journeyman, master model, where you start doing what comprehensive tasks you can, and as you get better you build your expertise until you can do it all at a moderate level. Then you go out, doing it all for a long time, getting better and better, until you get as good as you will and become the Master, who is a teacher. Sometimes called, “the school of hard knocks.” Maybe this is the way you learn to write?

Of course, there is heaps of crossover, its just a concept. I think most agree there is a mix of both required.

Education is efficient, but it takes an investment up front, and this is how we reached the stars and understand molecular biology.

Practical is effective because it brings a minimum performance level quickly, and builds applicable, productive talent continuously. This is how art is created.

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[QUOTE=Lucas;1034995]imo there are 2 types of martial artists. there are those that like contact and there are those that dont.
[/QUOTE]

Lucas, sorry. I have to dispute that call.

A. EVERYBODY likes contact, when your pitching.
B. NOBODY likes contact when your catching.

The difference is simply the willingness to accept B, for the chance to do A.

14

[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1035032]Lucas, sorry. I have to dispute that call.

A. EVERYBODY likes contact, when your pitching.
B. NOBODY likes contact when your catching.

The difference is simply the willingness to accept B, for the chance to do A.[/QUOTE]

you know, im not some weirdo that gets off on pain, but in the right frame of mind, i dont mind getting hit so much… it gets to me in the way that i would rather have blocked or dodged it but other than that, its not so bad… the only strike that i really would rather not ever experience again is a ko liver shot… omg that hurt… my legs lost all function and down i went… im just glad i didnt do anything embarassing like some stories ive heard of cats ****ing or ****ting themselves after a kick like that… now that would suck cajones forsure…

15

never take the oil change unless you get the wrap around.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1034991]

We have to be honest to ask ourselves a question, “Do we truly enjoy body pain?” I can’t speak for others but for myself, if I don’t feel body pain for a period of time, I don’t feel comfortable because I don’t know I can still take body pain or not. That kind of thinking just scare me. If I can feel body pain daily, I know that my body is not soft yet. [/QUOTE]

You need to see a shrink.

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1035041]never take the oil change unless you get the wrap around.[/QUOTE]

whats that mean??? is it anything like a reacharound???:rolleyes:

18

full sparring on the first day is a bit silly, you are just reinforcing bad habits even if it is done at a less intense pace than the more experienced fighters, but isolated sparring using techniques they have just learned is a good idea, jab against jab, straight punches only etc. This gives them confidence in their new skills whilst not overloading them. Its slightly different with grappling as its more relaxed and you can let them roll on the first day as long as they have been taught how to break fall and tap on the ground

19

[QUOTE=Frost;1035063]full sparring on the first day is a bit silly, you are just reinforcing bad habits even if it is done at a less intense pace than the more experienced fighters, but isolated sparring using techniques they have just learned is a good idea, jab against jab, straight punches only etc. This gives them confidence in their new skills whilst not overloading them. Its slightly different with grappling as its more relaxed and you can let them roll on the first day as long as they have been taught how to break fall and tap on the ground[/QUOTE]

Chi Sao/push hands drills are a good place for new students to start early. These drills shouldn’t just be the uprooting kind but should include striking, pushing, limited wrestling(limited in case students’ breakfalls aren’t good yet). These drills are much more controlled than sparring and build good initial reflexes. Students might want to step away from these drills to spar later but this is a good starting place.

20

I “sparred” the first day in TKD, Kyokushin, Judo, Boxing, MT, almost every system I ever trained, except for Wing Chun and when I was a kid starting Hung kuen.
The degree of contact was always dependent on what I was comfortable with.
It was light contact in most cases, but it got vamped up quick.

A point to be made is that no one really “likes” getting hit, I think the difference between those that are OK with hard/full contact and those that aren’t is HOW they react to getting hit.
If you are they type that “winces” you won’t like hard contact, but if you are the type that “kicks it up a notch”, like a switch was turned on, then you get the most out of hard contact.