Sparrings cool
We’re not talking making a beginner go full contact, we’re talking light to no contact, then you get a chance (as the beginner) to see what the arts looks like, how it flows, how effective it is. But without getting pounded.
But a couple of weeks of basics and stance work would be good to have first. But people shouldn’t have to wait too long.
When I used to take TKD I remember they put me to spar way earlier. I had to spar agianst a 2nd degree red belt. I thought he was going to pull some punches, him being the experienced one. When we started, he unleashed a lightning quick roundhouse, that caught me flush against the cheek. It almost put me to sleep. They of course stopped the fight. (I was bleeding from the mouth like crazy, surprisingly I had a black eye later from a kick to the cheek) Next time we sparred, he came close to knocking me out again. This did not help me at all. I was always on the guard, and to scared to attack after that. Granted someone should have told him to go easy. But this certainly did not help me. The guy didn’t even know his own strength, to him that was pulling punches.
That’s just silly though. When I talk of sparring helping a beginner I mean the mechanics of it, not being twatted in the face till you bleed.
So, based on Yung Apprentice’s evidence, I think we could say that whether sparring is likely to help a beginner is largely dependent on the school.
If your a beginer and your sparring a more experienced (vastly more) student, dont you expect the older student to have SOME maturity. It just really angers me to hear stories like Yungs, as a smiliar thing happened to me. To many ppl think sparring is fighting.
i’m with rogue on this one.
there are a lot of analogies in this thread. learning to fish. learning to write. learning to walk.
when you learn to fish, you don’t go through the motions in your living room. you get a rod and you go to a lake. you learn on the fly (pun intended). when you learn to write, you do so by writing. if you’re talking about creative writing, you absolutely learn by getting in there and mixing it up. and if you’re talking about learning the basics of the language, you still do so with pen in hand and ink on paper.
analogies aside, here’s the thing, to my mind: the general rationale goes that a student must internalize some basics before he can spar in a ‘style X’ way. and when a student gets to spar, if they then ‘revert’ back to kickboxing (i hate that characterization, by the way), it’s assumed that they haven’t sufficiently internalized the style yet.
but what if the problem is the opposite? they have internalized the style. they’ve internalized how the movements should look and feel. they’ve done right by their chosen style. but then, when they spar, nothing looks or feels the way it did in the more idealized forms, drills, and solo practice. and when the experience doesn’t match up to the training, the student reverts back to the most basic maneuvers they can.
what if the process of fighting in ‘style X’ way doesn’t work in the direction we’re discussing? basics –> internalization –> use in sparring. what if learning to fight in ‘style X’ way is actually a process of reconciling the freeform experience of sparring against the more stylized experience of forms, drills, etc.
i think it’s a question of how you define skill. do you define it by adherence to the precepts of your style? or by application? OR by both? and if by both, what was the experience of sparring like? do you remember being frustrated that it wasn’t going the way you had expected it would? i do, very clearly. and why did you expect it to go differently?
in an art where you spar from the get go (wrestling or boxing, for example), the discrepancy between practice and application is essentially nonexistent. i know those styles don’t have all the answers. and i’m not suggesting that there’s nothing to arguments about reality, vital targets, and so on. this isn’t an argument about sport vs. reality. just about training methods.
sparring from the get go could be a valuable tool if used properly. if the people involved are trustworthy (unlike yung’s red belt, who should have been shot) and the sparring sessions are directed, they could help to reduce the gap between practice and application right away. and a student can begin to grasp how ‘style X’ works in truth.
through directed sparring (as opposed to free sparring), students can work on specific skills, but in an environment that isn’t staged. the experience will come progressively closer to free sparring WITHOUT having to undo expectations based on the idealized experience of forms, drills, and so on.
i say this precisely because i trained in forms, drills, and so on for years and years. and my experience in sparring was the same as many i observe today. students put the gear on, face off, and then go through some of their favorite moves, as if it were another form, but messier. there’s no relationship between the two opponents, because the idea of performing their style in relation to someone else runs contrary to the training they’ve done thusfar. my take on it anyway.
in my opinion, a style would be better internalized if it were learned from the ground up in a situation that more closely resembled real life. i’m not talking about the urban battleground that so many ‘realistic’ martial artists like to cite. i’m just talking about an environment that stresses the relationship right away instead of establishing the style and then throwing in an opponent who then makes it near impossible to do right by that style, as the student has learned it.
the sooner sparring takes place (controlled, directed, purposeful sparring), the sooner a student will learn how their tools are actually applied, rather than simply learning how their tools work in isolation.
my opinion.
stuart b.
Who here believes that without any tools a person will learn an art by sparring? How many tools does a person need to start sparring?
Rogue caught a lot of flack in the WC board, which was uncalled for. The problem is that, I dont know about other arts, but in WIng Chun, and in my old karate school, you werent just tossed into the ring with no skills or little skill. You spent a lot of time learning what you had to learn. You werent given 50 some new moves or techniques to use for your first sparring experience, you were given the basics, a few basic blocks, and a few basic strikes, and you were introduced to light sparring. Why? Because it takes precision and structure to fight correctly in most arts. You could probably show up in the ring and start flailing and probably win a match or two just by sheer use of force, but you arent learning an art. You are learning to flail your arms until the other person cannot respond. If thats the way you want to learn to fight why bother taking a class at all? Get a couple of pairs of gloves and just get some neighbors to box with you in the back yard.
If you spend atleast a few months training in the basics, then you are probably ready to start some light sparring, in some arts anyway. There are arts out there that recquire a little more technical proficiency before you can be ready to fight using the style. These arts recquire that you train much harder and probably longer in the basics before you are ready to spar.
I agree with Ap
Also, the sooner a student learns to spar, the sooner they stop walking around thinking they acan take anyone because their little bit of knowledge has built a false sense of security. If they learn the drill or technique, and then spar, they’ll realise how difficult these things are to apply in dynamic situations.
Red5Angel
Which arts do you think require more hard work and technical knowledge before you can start sparring?
Ap, to a certain degree I agree with you, although I believe that forms training has its place. For some arts you need to make your body relearn what is natural. For Wing Chun, the structure is sound, but it is not exactly inherently natural to maintain it. The form is stressed, or should be, and your structure early on so that your physiology will adapt and it will become natural. If you start sparring too early, your structure is weak and you may “learn” the wrong habits. I imagine that there are other arts out there that that are similar in needing special attention to structure.
"in my opinion, a style would be better internalized if it were learned from the ground up in a situation that more closely resembled real life. i’m not talking about the urban battleground that so many ‘realistic’ martial artists like to cite. i’m just talking about an environment that stresses the relationship right away instead of establishing the style and then throwing in an opponent who then makes it near impossible to do right by that style, as the student has learned it. "
Scotty1 - Well, for myself, Wing chun is definite. My Karate was pretty strict about it. I am not sure what other arts would be important, possibly tai chi. Mainly any art who relies on structure to perform to optimal ability.
scotty1,
exactly. nicely (and far more succinctly) said. cheers.
red5angel,
you’re describing sparring as an end. it’s not. it’s the workshop in which you learn to use those tools.
“how many tools does a person need to start sparring?”
one. the one they’re working on. imagine that in your first class ever, the teacher taught you a single block or parry. you went over the motion for the class time. next class, he partnered you up with a senior student. you both put on gear. and the senior student proceeded to tag you in the head with straight punches while you tried to apply that block or parry.
sparring. the timing and exact sequence of events aren’t scripted. contact is made. but a specific tool is trained. and it’s learned. not how it’s supposed to look, ideally. but how it would actually be used.
now, sparring isn’t just a testing ground. it’s the medium by which the precepts of your style are internalized. and internalized in a way that actually works.
that’s what’s being suggested. nobody’s arguing that flailing is superior to trained fighting. we’re debating how to best internalize a style so that it can be brought to bear in sparring.
stuart b.
Qoute from Ap:
“imagine that in your first class ever, the teacher taught you a single block or parry. you went over the motion for the class time. next class, he partnered you up with a senior student. you both put on gear. and the senior student
proceeded to tag you in the head with straight punches while you tried to apply that block or parry.”
Now imagine that you’d been taught a basic strike along with that block or parry. Now when you sparred with the senior you would both have one weapon to attack with and one to defend with. As long as contact from the senior was fairly light, this could be added to weekly, kind of restricted sparring. Thusly (?) the student would be comfortable with the techniques. The unknown element is taken away.
This is expanded (with tactics, strategies and techniques) over time, along with all other drills and aspects of training.
Spar. But spar in a very controlled setting and with one’s instructor present, otherwise it will ingrain more bad than good habits. And if you do not understand that concept, then I would hazard a guess that you fall into the ‘kick boxer’ syndrome. The kick boxer syndrome applies to martial artists that study a specific style of martial arts other than actual kick boxing, but when they spar, style is abandoned.
Sparring for new students (even if they are ‘qualified’ in another MA) should be slow and of very light contact. The way we introduce sparring is that once the basics are learned (3 months) ,and after some practical 2-person drills, they have to be able to show competence in effectively using the basics in a free form sparring setting before moving on. Simple.
Having this done in a very controlled setting allows for the instructor to ensure the student is using the style in both principle and form. I am a kung fu practitioner, so my students will be fighting using our specific philosophy and form just as I must - compromise can not be tolerated. And that starts with the basics.
nospam.
Ap - exaclty and in that vein I would agree, it is a good way to learn how to apply the skills in a ‘realistic’ situation. To develope responses.
My only issue with starting out early again is structure. In the situation you describe, it may be a good one, especially with an instructor there to observe closely, but this subject also skirts the subject of usefulness of forms. Sometimes the forms are a toolbox, just showing you what is there. Sometimes they are there to help you develope good structure.
I keep mentioning structure so I will provide an example of what I am talking about. In WC, your elbows should be in, generally speaking. this is unnatural, as your elbows tend to go out as you punch or whatever. The first form, you are forced to keep your elbow in almost the whole time. When I started it was very uncomfortable for me and I couldnt hold it very long. Now I can touch both of my elbows together and hold them there.Am I making sense here? I am having a hardc time articulating myself at the moment.
red5angel,
please understand that i’m not dissuading anyone from forms practice. what i’m saying is that sparring early on can help to internalize the style in a practical manner.
if the sparring is building bad habits, change the sparring. engineer the sparring so that it builds good habits.
remember that bad habits can also be ingrained by training solo without that critical feedback. and then when you do get around to sparring, you have to undo those habits.
the success or failure of any training method rests on how it’s executed.
stuart b.
red5angel,
yeah, you’re articulating yourself just fine. and i see where you’re coming from.
but why not engineer a sparring format that trained that particular thing? why do you keep your elbows down like that? to guard your body? if so, set up a sparring match in which you’re on the offensive. but your partner can counter when you bring your elbows up, reinforcing the purpose of the structure in a very immediate way.
at the same time, study your forms. one will inform the other. the forms will be more meaningful if they’re connected to direct experiences from sparring. and the sparring will benefit from having the structure modeled in the forms.
this isn’t an ‘either/or’ proposition.
stuart b.
Ap - Gotcha, not saying anyone here is accusing form practice of being wrong, just saying this issue and that are brothers in arms!
I agree, controlled sparring is a good idea, for instance in WC we have Chi Sau, its not a way of fighting, but it is a way of using your skills and techniques in a dynamic environment. It forms a step in wing chun, and I think the next step is often ignored as most people in WC think Chi sau is the end all for sparring. After you have ‘mastered’ chi sau free form sparring should be introduced.
Same with most other arts, I think taking it in steps is a good idea. Like your example, controlled, set up sparring in the beginning helps to determine how a technique is actualized in reality.
red5angel,
yeah, depending on how it’s practiced, i imagine that chi sau falls squarely into that category. good point.
scotty1,
precisely! that’s how you build a repetoire of applicable skills, in my opinion.
stuart b.
Thinking about it that way makes much more sense. I think there are some people who are floating around thinking they should just hop into the ring and start swinging! It hasnt occurred to them yet that getting in too early could be detrimental if they are trying to learn a system or style.
Aristotle said - “That which we learn, we learn by doing”
However a foundation is necessary.
Immediate sparring is generally flailing and little is learned without guidance in this area.
By getting a foundation and learning the principles behind what you are doing will contribute more to your success than just jumping on in.
The analogies stated here ring true. crawl before walking, walk before running.
A bad experience gained from little experience and poor instruction can lead to someone not pursuing a path that otherwise they may have a chance to excel at with proper guidance.
You can’t pay for skill, nor is there a magic potion for it. There are lessons to be learned before application is good.
peace
excellent way of putting it Ap.