merrypankster
–that greater skill can beat attribute advantages, regardless of style.
here is a thought why can’t you have both
I will always believe that the person is more important than the style.Techniques and styles are tools used by an human mind or spirit and the stronger/clearer will win. (Not going tree hugger there!)
BTW, I can’t speak for Joy but I have the feeling that he is a big boxing fan and a connaisseur of this sport so…
Originally posted by Ernie
[[/B]
here is a thought why can’t you have both [/B]
Great champions ,whatever the sport usually have both. This is why they can last longer than the “brutus” who got there by his body mass alone.
preach on brother jong,
skill alone not enough skill plus great attribute development ,
simple concept but why do most see it as skill or attributes ,
side note ever play with a good football , much raw power great physical attribites , awsome endurance and high pain tolerance , great body senstivity , and extreme commitment ,
not a walk in the park . even if you have a ton of skill ,and are in a good postions , his raw abilities will still make a wrong position for him work for his benifit .
add a little bit of street savy and hand skills makes for a hard day at the office eh.
Hey!..Nobody’s arguing about the american way or Steeve Lombardi but; we can have different views on the value of a practice.
jong
we can have different views on the value of a practice.
oh i know i just have had experience with this type of individual , and things get real physical real fast ,
i have noticed a common denominater in well balanced athletic people , the got atributes in speed power ,balance , strength and as you say deep fighting spirit from years of competing ,
then tend to pose greater problems even if your super sensitive and empty out or guide them offline , they got heart and will take the heat to prove there point , and they out endure most even if the other is higher skilled but lacking in physical conditioning .
i was thinking out load in your direction i was chi sauing with two individuals like this today and was watching others work out with them .
didn’t mean anything by it
Life is never easy.
Responses to MP in brackets:Old Jong, I don’t think you are negative about my preferences. But Yuan Fen seems to be. Or I may be misunderstanding him.
((You misunderstand me MP- but that is ok. I dont object to your preferences. People can make Capoeira(sp?) work…goes for BJJ,
muay thai etc))
My objections are to Style X confers something “special” that makes you a better fighter than Style Y.
(( Understand your objections.However, If I didnt think that good wing chun wasn’t in it’s principles of motion and dynamics something special- I wouldnt be in it. I do think that wing chun
as an art has some inherent key advantages- but I almost always choose not to advance a brief on that. I always consistently advise people- if you have a choice between learning ch0y lee fut from a master (Tat Mau Wong or Doc Fai Wong) as opposed to an average wing chun school- opt for the former. Ditto for Gene Labelle in practical grappling etc. I judge taiji by Chen Xiao Wang- not the folks waving their hands in parks.Shotokan by Nakayama or Koyama- not by ymca folks hollering away. ))
A great WC guy is going to have a hard time with a great boxer.
((Dont know about that-no such meeting has taken place
that I know of.. but I dont spend time arguing it))
My general objections revolve around training. Not about arts.
(We differ but its ok. I am curious about the arts without minimizing the importance of top flight training in the selected art or arts. I am curious about martial arts and sports- but my informed choice of a superior fightimg art is wing chun. Training is best when it is arts and activity specific . Some skills dont automatically transfer well . Michael Jordan in his prime was/is an average baseball player. Dang- I am Casey Stengelish on names. Danny X ( yes- Danny Hodges- check web search) out of Oklahoma was
a topflight Oklahoma - Olympic wrestler- got chewed up in pro boxing. Did good for a while but got cut up by Nino Valdez.I listen to MMA talk( I always read your posts- they can help wing chun folks devlop a clear focus and some humility) but I am more interested in serious wing chun discussions. There is not enough of it- apart from chest thumping. But in wing chun as in many serious fighting arts- people dont always show all their cards.))
Old Jong sez:
BTW, I can’t speak for Joy but I have the feeling that he is a big boxing fan and a connaisseur of this sport so…
((Old Jong- my many curiosities include first rate boxing, wrestling, football(cough, wouldnt want to be tackled by"Dirty" Dobler), soccer(I wouldnt want to be kicked in the knee by Pele.
But my amazement at the dearth of good wing chun continues unabated.
There is a lot of noise but I do think that good wing chun was rare and remains so. You can get diamonds at a store—but for the Kohinoor-
you have to wait. I grew up in the US in Oklahoma- around top flight wrestlers and football players- lived in the athletes dorm(luck) at oklahoma State… had to handle grapplers and ball players as bullies on the street- at times- “for real”. John Farrell a friend at Oklahoma U was AAU judo champion. John Ross at Florida State
was national judo champ of US and Taiwan. My friend Joe Begala at kent State used to be the winningest college wrestling coach.I have learned some wisdom from each. Joe wrote the key self defense book during WW2 fir navy fliers caught behind lines.Boxing is an entirely different and long story.I wont bore you with the rest… have had to take care of myself “for real”-promise. Am I glad that I didnt run into a Ip Man in his prime on the street!! Sorry for anytypos— an a good speller- but keyboarding? the two fingers are still learning often in the dark.
Yuan,
Let me try to pin you down–are you telling me that excellently taught and practiced WC would produce a BETTER fighter than excellently taught and practiced, say, Muay Thai, or merely a DIFFERENT fighter?
That’s my only real interest.
Ernie–I agree that you have to maximize both.
Hi Merry,
Are you a Ken Kesey fan or a Tom Wolfe fan? 
Originally posted by Merryprankster
[B]Yuan,
Let me try to pin you down–are you telling me that excellently taught and practiced WC would produce a BETTER fighter than excellently taught and practiced, say, Muay Thai, or merely a DIFFERENT fighter?
[/B]
Aren’t you beating a dead horse? Yuanfen has often detailed his long familiarity and practice of boxing prior to when he got lucky and put in sufficient time and thought to recognize the advantages of Wing Chun.
While boxing has merit, both on the street and in the ring, Wing Chun is superior because it has more weapons and more flexibility, being applicable and adaptable to and in naturally occurring situations. A good boxer may however, beat a mediocre Wing Chun person, but the reverse is certainly true as well.
Good Wing Chun, which most would not recognize without gaining the sophistication to understand its principles, is rare. Few here have seen it. Fewer practice it. Fewer still have mastered it.
In regards to good Wing Chun, this forum is fortunate to having several knowledgeable voices including, but not limited to Yuanfen and a handful of others. These voices are not evangelists, but examples leading the way. Many choose to ignore their pearls of wisdom.
Life is short. Luck in judgement plays hard in selecting one’s path.
Regards,
Hi Merry,
Originally posted by Merryprankster
[B]Yuan,
Let me try to pin you down–are you telling me that excellently taught and practiced WC would produce a BETTER fighter than excellently taught and practiced, say, Muay Thai, or merely a DIFFERENT fighter?
[/B]
I’m curious to your response to the question as well Merry. In your heart of hearts, whould you give the advantage to a someone training in excellent Wing Chun or excellent Muay Thai? How about excellent Tai Chi vs excellent bjj? While it’s all very pc to say that all arts are equal and that it’s only the practioner and not the art at all, who amoung us don’t believe that the art we’re practicing is “better?”
And if you don’t think it’s better, why are you practicing your current art at all? And if you don’t prefer some arts over the other why are you interested in bjj, mt, and boxing, as opposed to bjj, taichi, and hung gar? Or any other number of combinations? If I’m not mistaken, you have a preference toward MMA type arts. Why is that?
Not trying to knock any art or anyone, but let’s get real here. As much as you hate martial arts elitist snobbery, can you honestly, truly honestly, tell me that somewhere deep inside of you, there isn’t any trace of you that thinks that bjj is the shiizit? And indeed if there is some part of you that takes pride in your chosen art, is it so hard to believe that other people might believe other arts to be better?
In reality, many many factors will render these personal biases irrelevant. You need a combination of a good teacher, good student, good art, good environment, enough time, enough dedication, enough smarts, enough physicality, etc., etc. The variables are numerous enough that predicting which is the best becomes chaotic. Despite that, we’re still human after all, and we’ll still have our own biases. Yuanfen has his, and you have yours. We all secretly (or not so secretly for some) think we’re right. Just sit back and enjoy the show.
Regards,
Zhuge Liang
MP sez:
Yuan,
Let me try to pin you down–are you telling me that excellently taught and practiced WC would produce a BETTER fighter than excellently taught and practiced, say, Muay Thai, or merely a DIFFERENT fighter?
That’s my only real interest.
Actually I am fairly easy to pin down on this issue. The answer is
YES…but the context is important.
-
Initially it takes longer to learn excellent wing chun when compared to boxing, wrestling or muay thai- but eventually wing chun surpasses them… in a no rules context.
If i didnt think so, I wouldnt be doing wing chun. -
Good kung fu- particularly wing chun and what goes on in
average establishments are nowehere near the same thing.
BTW- on the other thread to you and Blackjack and others- no subtle hints at all about you not belonging here at all.
But no subtle hint either that my clear primary interest on a forum with the title “wing chun” is in discussing wing chun and things that are relevant to wing chun.
Bt your perspective provides a good contrast for some of the discussions.
I too call em as i see em. But I pick and choose what I want to comment on.
Actually John, I wasn’t beating a dead horse. I was trying to determine if yuan believed WC was superior en toto or simply relatively–ie, somebody else might get more out of MT because it suits them better for whatever reason, than WC does.
Yuan has essentially answered that he believes that a “style” is superior in a no rules context. I agree to a certain extent. A “straight” wrestler is going to be unaware of certain things that could get him in to trouble–after all, he never had to deal with them!
A WC guy is going to be more aware of those things (hopefully).
However, take that wrestler, teach him what to do with strikes and teach him some submission stuff to avoid and you have a very effective fighting machine.
In other words, train wrestling in a free/folk/greco context and you’ve got a guy who has some key vulnerabilities. Train him in an NHB context and you’ve got the same core abilities and increased “Self-defense” skills for lack of a better term.
Zhange, in my heart of hearts, all other things being equal, I give the advantage to the better fighter. It’s not a very satisfying answer, but its the truth. Each system developed because SOMEBODY was able to use it well. Whichever fighter controls the fight will very likely win (barring a little luck–puncher’s chance, etc.) I mean, a decent pro boxer against an average high-school level wrestler is likely to fare quite well.
For the record, I AM interested in CMA. But I’m not going to walk into a school I think is garbage. An instructor is entitled to my hard work, but I am just as entitled to them being competant instructors.
MP sez:
For the record, I AM interested in CMA. But I’m not going to walk into a school I think is garbage. An instructor is entitled to my hard work, but I am just as entitled to them being competant instructors.
Competent instruction! A completely reasonable expectation.
There is no substitute for the search for excellence.
Mediocrity in instruction is not limited to wing chun.
Notes on MP’s post’
A “straight” wrestler is going to be unaware of certain things that could get him in to trouble–after all, he never had to deal with them!
((Same for a “straight” boxer-through habit he may come in with his head down for close work. Good chance he won’t have the instinct to defend against a short hit on the back of his head or neck))
A WC guy is going to be more aware of those things (hopefully).
((Not if he is a dummy…wing chun has them too))))
However, take that wrestler, teach him what to do with strikes and teach him some submission stuff to avoid and you have a very effective fighting machine.
((The problem is under stress- the last thing learned is the first forgotten and people revert to type. There has to be a reprogramming of the brain and that is part of the agenda of good kung fu))
Yuan,
I think to some extent that reprogamming is present anywhere–habit of leading with your shoulders vice hips when throwing a discus, etc.
Anyhoo, while I agree you revert to “type,” I don’t think it has to be blindly. I will likely always “revert” to grappling. When in doubt, I’m likely to close the gap. However, that doesn’t mean, especially given my BJJ training, that I’m necessarily going to revert to folkstyle wrestling. I guess what I’m saying is that while I agree to some extent, our hypothetical wrestler isn’t likely to pin somebody and just lay there, any more than a hypothetical BJJer is going to flop to his butt when he gets in trouble.
Originally posted by Merryprankster
[B]
Ridiculous! Skill (period) compensates for weight, strength and speed differences, not “WC” or “boxing” or “wrestling.” Being good is what compensates for disparities in thos attributes.
[/B]
This comment contains the very essence of kung fu and that coming from a MMA guy and this agreement coming from a Baji player.
Not Style X is better than Style Y, not spankin’ Chi Blasts, nothing else but this.
I can’t help but feel that if you don’t believe this, you’re caught in a web of lies, thinking that there is something out there that is not available to everyone and that can mysteriously make you a better fighter.
If you like the way a certain style or sport trains, train that way. If not, then don’t. That’s why we have a variety of styles.
Train, train, train.
MP-
Sharing thoughts after reading your post.
Severn wrestled here in Tempe so did his brothers. One of his old teammates visited my class once. The point that comes to mind as far as reverting to type—in his first match with Royce- Severn picked up Royce and took him down- and then didnt know what do with him after his past preoccupation with pinning. Royce played his game amd kept cool.
In turn- Royce in the second match with Shamrock- got hit by a rather clumsy punch by Shamrock-
the side of his face was busted and he was not the same for the rest of the match
“Good” wing chun training smoothly flows in its trained motions between strikes, breaks, chin na, throes and counters- the mind set is control, hurt and survival once the fight/flight decision is made..Wing chun begins with char kuen punching-but not just for punching—it results in a body unity and shaping thatbecomes versatile and timing sharp both with forms and variations of chi sao and applications and experience.
Because of lack of time among other reasons I do not watch the UFC type of events anymore- though I have attended rage in the cage events just to check out things.
I know perspectives can vary.
You mentioned CMA— many distinguish betweena general term CMA and TCMA- in order to have zero connection with modern wushu and other acrobatic non martial variants. TCMA is being overtaken by modern wushu and movie stunt work. My good!!!
Off to work obligations.
Yuan,
On the other hand, Mark Kerr and Mark Coleman took people down and started beating the crap out of them. 
Yuan, the qualities you outline about good WC apply to ANY well practiced art.
Different wavelengths. I dont think that Mark Coleman is a very good model of self defense.
His knees in the Smith fight ? Ouch. Standing helpless while being kicked in the knees. Little skill but great fortitude.
Smith is now an “old” man for active sports.
I think that we just have differnt views on martial arts.
But that’s ok.