Southern Fist the best?

system · May 20, 2001, 7:44pm

About Kung Fu

Northern Mantis,

Ok so I gather Rolls believes that kung fu is crap. But does that make him a troll? It is as much for some people on this forum to understand that others may have differing views as much as it is for them to know the effectiveness of good kung fu. I have seen many shoddy kung fu classes in my time and i can fully understand why some people perceive that kung fu is crap. I guess education goes both ways!

Bean Curd

i think you missed my point. What I’m saying is that the different types of food can be summerized into a few basic food groups. Just like it doesn’t matter if you hit someone with a tiger claw, dragon claw, leapord paw, pheonix eye fiest and how ever number of hand configurations there are.

what matters is the basic strategies of combat. to some extent muey thai and western boxing covers them. I’m not saying that kung fu fights like boxing - in fact you don’t because boxing is bound by a set of rules - kingfu’s not. However, the basics like angling, timing, fient etc are common to all northern styles which is also apparent in “sports” combat like boxing.

Because the human body can only move in finite ways, there must be a set of generalized concepts that must be developed for good kung fu. That’s why i disagree with the smogersboard concept. The objective of good kung fu is more simple that you make it out to be.

whereas, southern styles focus more on an “aspect” of combat. For example with Wing Chun, practitioners stick quite religiously to the “gate” theory. This would work in some instances, but it’s useless if your opponent goes ape on you or use curved punches.

Southern sytles are not very adaptable in in my language non robust.

Maximus Materialize!

system · May 21, 2001, 7:57am

The guy challenged Tai Yim.No respect whatso ever.

“Always be ready”

system · May 21, 2001, 10:36am

What???

Eggo what the hell are you talking about? You said

“What Im saying is that the different types of food can be summarized into a few food groups. just like it doesn’t matter if you hit someone with a tiger claw, dragon claw, leopard paw, pheonix eye fiest, and how ever number of hand configurations there are.”

In the next paragraph, you said that the basic strategies like angling, timing, and feinting are really what matters???

I don’t know why I am bothering but WAKE UP!!! Every one of the southern techniques you mentioned are basic, effective, deadly, etc! They can all be used as a BASIC STRATEGY of attack. See its like this, you can hit AT me with five different attacks, and all I have to do is pierce you once in the eye with a leopard paw or phoenix eye fist.

Another basic could be that you could kick and punch as hard at my head, torso, or legs as you wanted and all I have to do is get through your guard, Tiger Claw your neck with my left hand, dragon claw your skull with my right, and drop the horse all in one. In BASIC terms you attack AT me, I rush at you like a scared tiger, and then I claw, twist, and snap your neck apart while dropping to the floor. Nah, I would probably just tiger claw your neck and drop the horse, no need to use dragon claw.

If you are a Sifu of Southern Mantis you should be able to use it. If you are a Sifu of Southern Mantis you should understand that it uses angling, timing, and feinting. THESE ARE BASIC FIGHTING CONCEPTS REMEMBER! ALL SYSTEMS HAVE THIS! Are you that Kelvin dude??

Even though this is totally stupid, you tell me one northern stylist that beat Chun Lai Cheung, Lam Yui Gwai, oh nevermind I am not going to sit here and list names. EGO YOU KNOW S***.

TAO YIN

“With great power, be still”

system · May 21, 2001, 11:16pm

I wish ore people fight with southern kung fu

victory would be so much easier.

Tao Yin,

Come on! hand configurtation cannot be described as a basic technique. Do you know it’s verty difficult to ok someone in the eyes or break their necks - unless they are standing still or their one of the 3 stooges!

You’ve basically agreed with my point that Southern Kung fu techniques have limited applications - very specific in their application. Breaking something by striking it is non-analytic and I’ve expounded on the problems of that in the last post!

But you’re on the money of what I would have done when I had practiced kung fu. That is to throw multiple hits at the target. eventually some will get through and those that don’t will return valuable information about the “vectors” pertaining to the target. It’ll be so funny seeing the opponent changing strategy from a leapord fist, then to a tiger claw, oh no wait maybe a dragon claw or was it a crane beak while getting pulverized by northern kung fu.

It would be very funny indeed. Don’t you think?

Maximus Materialize!

system · May 22, 2001, 5:06am

i agree with you ego..

like you said, these techniques like the tiger claw, leopard paw, dragon claw, crane beak.. may all be ineffective in a fight… but when the southern stylist is properly trained, which many schools may not emphasize as they allow the average student to pass onto the next form, then of course these techniques automatically become obselete in a modern street fight. what about irom palm? a techniques which is in most southern systems. iron palm, iron shirt, iron finger.. any of these superior training techniques may kill someone in a modern street fight. so you say that a moving target is hard to hit? of course, i’ll give you that. then we must take out any grappling/ chin na techniques of northern kung fu also. so northern styles like hsing-i and pa kua, which are internal styles may also only be useful if the practiconer is properly trained and has developed chi(and the other necessary energies) and sensitivity. what much is left? what else distinguishes northern styles from southern styles? you tell me this “superior strategy” of the north which makes northern styles so inferior because i’ve yet to be defeated by a northern stylist and my victories have been rather easy. so maybe the nothern styles you describe are overrated, of are only useful in the hands of a seasoned practiconer… as my point stands for southern styles… as my point stands for ANY martial system.

while i breathe, i hope..

system · May 22, 2001, 12:42pm

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!LOLLOLLOLLOL!!!

Eggo you really do know S***. Yes I can say that all of those hand configurations are basic because all you are doing is JUST THAT, configurating your hand! Now, to use any of those techniques you must condition them and train them properly. Anyway, Yes I can say that a tiger claw is just as basic as any punch. BASICALLY, with a punch you are throwing your fist at a moving opponent. BASICALLY, with a tiger claw you are throwing your hand out to grab the moving opponent. Now since you are slow I must put an emphasis on the word BASICALLY because I am not talking about tiger claw combos or anything of the sort.

By the way, in my earlier post I wasn’t changing strategies. It was 2 different strategies that both work separately. Now pay attention! I realize you have a hard time understanding what others say but I am going to make this real simple for you to understand.

1st attack-You kick, punch, sweep, and whatever else at me. Realizing that most of those hits are going to make contact, I block the best I possibly can and then thrust my left fingers into your eye, throat, temple, etc. At the same time I land at least one phoenix eye somewhere right about your sternum.

Why does 1st attack work-Because you have set yourself up by throwing too many non-targeted attacks. YOU ARE NOT ATTACKING FOR MY CENTERLINE! Therefore, I am using basic aggressive footwork, charging and attacking you the whole time you are attacking. Sooner or later I will get inside your centerline! It doesn’t matter how many attacks you throw either. If we are truly fighting, it doesn’t matter if you make contact 10 times because I know that all I have to do is get inside your centerline ONCE and then I can tear up your eyes, OR temple, OR throat, OR nose, OR ears, OR collar bone, Or sternum, etc. A good Northern Fighter knows to not let a Southern Fighter inside the centerline. THE REASON, IF IM INSIDE YOUR CENTERLINE IT MAKES IT EASIER FOR ME TO CONNECT MY ATTACKS BECAUSE I HAVE BROUGHT YOU CLOSER TO ME, THE TARGET IS CLOSER AND MORE ACCESSIBLE!!! Duh Eggo.

From all of your elaborate but idiotic talk all you are really saying is that you WOULD throw aimless punches, kicks, sweeps, attacks, and whatever else in order to land hits SOMEWHERE on the opponent. This is going to do 2 things for you.

You are going to be damn tired about 30 seconds into the fight.
Most of your attacks are going to be to the outside of the opponent centerline. The attacks that you landed to my head or knees only makes me more angry and aggressive. A lot of good this is going to do you! hahaha

Wait I’m not done.

2nd attack-You throw whatever attacks you possibly can. I rush your CENTERLINE and grab your neck…ok I missed with my left hand so ill use my right. Then I drop to the ground making sure to push forward with whatever grip I have on your neck so as to make sure the back of your head smashes the pavement.

Why does 2nd attack work-Because you do not have enough speed or power to stop me from charging you and grabbing your neck. You threw all of those punches and kicks but they didn’t connect with anything but the OUTSIDE of my CENTERLINE.

Eggo, you are only partially right. It is hard to grab an arm or leg and break it because they can move in an array of directions. BUT IT ISN’T HARD TO GRAB THE BOTTOM OF SOMEONES NECK!!! If Im inside your centerline YOU CAN’T MOVE YOUR BODY FAST ENOUGH FOR ME TO NOT GRAB YOUR NECK, OR PIERCE YOUR STERNUM, OR CRACK YOUR TEMPLE, OR RIP YOUR EYES, ETC. The head and torso are always primary targets. They are the targets that are going to be the closest that you are ever going to get to STATIONARY.

And No I don’t agree with you. Southern Kung Fu applications are in no way limited. Here is an example. You seem to be interested in Tiger Claw. Well, I can TIGER CLAW, your ankle, groin, nuts, arm pits, neck, wrist, collar bone, eyes, and on and on. And that is just one technique, TIGER CLAW.

It seems to me you would use your Southern Mantis hands with your Northern Mantis legs??? You are truly an idiot if you think a Southern attack won’t work.

I have no idea why I bothered.

TAO YIN

[This message was edited by TAO YIN on 05-22-01 at 08:58 PM.]

system · May 22, 2001, 9:52pm

Center line

The techniques you have described rely on the assumption that your opponent’s center line remains static in space. That is true for southern systems because of their crappy foot work.

But if you’re dealing with something like Ba Gua, the practitioner can shift their center line 180 degrees very rapidly. You;'ll have a hard time chasing them down. If you’rte dealing aganist northern mantis, you’ll find the hits coming from all directions. Basically, just as it is not easy to claw someone’s throat, neck or eye, you’ll be hard pressed chasing down their centerline.

As for striking at the temple or poking an eye, you’ll run the risk of breaking your finger on something hard if you miss the target. I didn’t expect something so silly from a smart person like you.

Maximus Materialize!

system · May 23, 2001, 9:10am

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Nevermind Eggo!

It is obvious that you either didn’t read my post or comprehend it one.

Leggo my Eggo said “the techniques you have described rely on the assumption that your opponent’s centerline remains static in space.”

Even though I explained this in my post, I will try to explain it to you again. I don’t assume that the opponents centerline is static. I WAS SAYING THAT THE OPPONENTS CENTERLINE IS THE CLOSEST THING I’LL GET TO STATIC!!! Do you really not understand this. The centerline is going to be more static than the legs, the legs are usually going to be more static than the hands, BUT OF COURSE THEY WILL ALL BE MOVING. I guess maybe you have a problem understanding how something could be more or less static than something else. What I mean is the centerline isn’t going to move around AS MUCH as the opponent’s attacks are. Its somewhat like football. If I want to tackle you then my target is your sternum. That is where my eyes are, right at you sternum. If you go to twist your waist I’m just going to slam into the top of your ribs with the helmet. The only valid point you made in your post was about Bagua. And yes I know how Northern Praying Mantis Practitioners fight, attacks from all directions, deceptive footwork, redirecting, etc, etc, blah, blah. Are you stupid enough to believe that Southern Kung Fu doesn’t do this.

Then you said “That is true for southern systems and their crappy footwork.”

OK I am used to hearing junk like this and it’s funny. It is always something like Northern stances and kicks are the best and Southern handwork is the best, or something along those lines. Your statment is total bullshit, Southern footwork is crappy, HAHAHAHA!! I can’t believe that you really believe this. But I am glad that you believe this. I want you to always think that Fu Bo footwork is not effective. HAHAHA. Let me guess, Dew Tai Ma is also ineffective. HAHAHAHAHA. WAIT WAIT, Biggest joke of all, BUD DIN BATT BAT HAS NO APPLICATION WHATSOEVER TO A FIGHT!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!

I’ll tell you what Eggo, you use only climbing hill horse stance and I will only use Bud Din Batt Bat Ma!! Or better yet, lets set it up like this: You use a ninety-degree northern cat stance, and I’ll use a Soutern Cat Stance, now from here lets see which one of us can kick (with power) the other first!

Sorry Eggo I won’t be chasing them down, I’ll already be right where I need to be. And like I said in my earlier post YOU HAVE TO TRAIN THOSE TECHNIQUES PROPERLY. So you don’t break your fingers you chump!

I still don’t understand, why don’t you use Southern Mantis Hands with Northern Mantis legs Eggo? You are a Sifu of both right? HAHAHAHA!

Oh by the way, go to the main kung fu forum and post a topic like ATTENTION RALEK or something like that. He is a bjj fan who thinks all kung fu sucks. You should show him just how superior your Northern Mantis is! HAHAHAHA!! Is that 5 star you study? Or is it 7 star now? LOL!

TAO YIN

“With great power, be still”

system · May 23, 2001, 10:59pm

Southern legs!

Center line is the most static, depends on what you mean by static. It is possible that the opponent’s center line is moving in a different plane to the attacks. Obviously a competent practitioner would be shifting the “soft targets” away from you and and throwing the attacks in your direction.

Sure Southern styles do have some degree of foot work but it’s not as effecient as the North. I’m not failiar with the terms you’re using in tiger claw. please describe them.

Your statement of using Southern Mantis hands and Northern Mantis legs shows a lack of understanding of either system. The movements are conceptually different and incompetable. Of course Northern Mantis being the superior of the two.

If you’re thinking that conditioning will make your strategy work significantly better - I think you’re barking up the wrong tree. You cannot avoid the fact that you’re trying to strike a very small target that’s moving around alot. Put it another way, the most vulnerable targets are also the most well protected. Naturally reaction would cause even an untrained person to flinch away if something gets close to the eyes.

Say in the Iraq war, before the US could get to air fields, it had to neutralise the AAA. Rushing in for the “choice” target would be suicide.

That’s why in Northern systems, the targets are more generalized, either lower, middle, upper torso and leg area. it is accepted that significant amount of work may be needed to get to the target areas. That’s why the emphasis on sensitivity rather then breaking power.

To give an example, it is alot harder to break someone’s leg than it is to disrupt their balance. All it takes to hit your target may be a momentary advantage. Why go to all the trouble (and risk) to go for the break!

The key to success is the collection and analysis of information. You don’t need the largest guns to win a war - just enough fire power and know what the enemy is doing.

One more thing - no need to get personal, otherwise other forum users may mistake you for a troll.

Maximus Materialize!

system · May 25, 2001, 2:00pm

…

There is no best and worst style. The only thing that counts when two martial arts practicioners fight , is the ability and technique

system · May 26, 2001, 3:18pm

Best and worst style

Internal Flow

I agree with you that when 2 practitioners fight the outcome depends on ability and technique (and amonst many other external factors that may or may not be controllable).

However, that said, it is NOT a proof that there isn’t a best or worst style.

Firstly, it is necessary to define what you mean by best and worst - hopefully it may mean keeping the conditions (for the fight to take place) constant.

Then you may want to test the styles statisitcally by having a lage number of practitioners of style A challenging a large number of practitioners of style B.

Then measure the probability of success of A and B to determine if the success of one style over the other is statistically significant. Now repeat this execise for all styles.

I don’t beleive that this execise has been done recently. But the closet thing to this experiment probably occurred about 300+ years ago when kung fu was used extensively in the battle field context.

As it turned out, it was Northen styles like Hsing I, mantis etc that were used in highly critical situations like personal body guards for high ranking officials etc.

This may be the closest proof we have to what is / are the best styles. Of course, it is necessary to train correctly to attain the full potential within these systems.