Southern Fist the best?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
21

southern fist…

To anyone ignorant enough to believe that southern style gung fu is not effective or even as, if not more, effective than northern style kung fu doesn’t deserve to be called a kung fu practicioner. Of course as with anything, there are going to be bad apples in the bin.( This holds to be self-evident in many governments e.g.) So of course there are going to be styles of martial arts that are watered down from its original form. If a northern style master teaches a student martial arts for years and that student decides to open a school(regardless of his masters feelings) and that instructor teaches poorly, his students will learn poor techniques. Should that style or even the first master’s ability be based on that one bad instructor? In short, one who has learned poorly has no right to criticize an entire system based on the teachings of one instructor.

22

To the new members

Ego is a fraud.

He has told more lies on this board than can be calculated by a supercomputer.

He is NOT a Southern Mantis instructor!

If you don’t reply to him, he will get bored, and make himself into a bigger moron than he is now (if that is indeed possible).

23

Liberating China

Peacemaker,

To set the records of history straight, Wong Fei Hung was actually a small time rebel who did enough to make a name for himself amongst the peasant but not enough to get his head chopped off by the local Megistrate (who was skilled in Northern Kung Fu). Wong wasn’t a dumb @ss peasant and was actually quite a smart guy and learned the lessons from those Fuikken monks who thought their kung fu was so great and had their temple burned down by the Northern Masters. In fact, the Megistrate and Wong became good friends. With the little trouble that Wong caused, the Megistrate was able to call on the central government for more resources to “hunt down” the rebel. The little good that Wong do made him a local hero and a superstar to the local chics.

Sure some soldiers from the megistrate got killed and so did a few of Wong’s merry men. But the two leaders were astute politicians and even staged afew combats of their own.

Anyway the friendship ended when the megistrate discovered that Wong was sleeping with his wife. And indeirectly Wong did kill the Megistrate by causing him to have a heart attack as a result of his actions. Wong later discovered that the Megistrate was sexually impotent and in this way he liberated China. (The name of the Megistrate’s wife was China).

That was Wong’s greatest conquest

Maximus Materialize!

24

peacemaker,
you’ve got some viscious run on sentances!

“Computer games don’t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we’d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.”

  • Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989
25

Hi-

Actually, legend has it that the monks of the southern temple destroyed the temple themselves as a kind of “scorched earth policy”.

It is still to this day a debateable issue as to whether or not an actual temple in Fukien existed.

There is said to be ruins and of course there is the new southern temple built by the prc to manage the interest of martial arts of shaolin and how the northern temple is full to the limit.

I think that the White Horse temple in Putian would be able to furnish fairly sound information on the reality of the southern Shaolin temple because it was there at the alleged time of the southern temples existance and it is still there today.

The buddhist martial arts of the south were derived from the buddhist martial arts of the north.
There are differences in techniques and styles but they share the same root. Shaolin Temple at Song Shan in Henan is the starting point for the codification and systemization of buddhist martial arts in and out of China.

It is also worthy to note that martial arts as “systems” were practiced in China before the existance of the Shaolin Temple, but that the Shaolin Temple was the greatest in maintaining and preserving many arts both buddhist and indigenous.

It was “THE” place to learn Kung Fu in it’s heyday and to many people it still is, even though most of the offerings are contemporary wu shu of the prc.

peace

Kung Lek

26

To set the records straight

I’m not a fraud and I’m not a troll.

Maximus Materialize!

27

Prove your point, Ego..

Everyone in this forum knows that the only true way to prove a point about combat is through combat. This is not personal challenge, because i wouldn’t want to embarass you that bad. I simply want you to prove verbally through your “knowledge” of southern kung fu what techniques you think are crap. most of the northern style practioners that i’ve sparred fight similar to taekwondo practicioners. they throw a lot of fast, simultaneous, and sometimes even strong kicks. though these kicks generally lacked root and stability and i constantly have to restrain myself from making the simplest twist of my rooted self and iron bridge hands in order not to break their legs. a constant struggle for me. also, i must restrain myself when i simply use my swift, rooted stepping skills to avoid these long ranges kicks and punches because once i get to the origins of these attacks(ie. the hips and shoulders) and i am on the inside, i have to restrain myself from breaking their ribs because their not very skilled in close range combat. please don’t think that i’m insulting northern style kung fu practioners because 1/3 of my style is northern shaolin, but these are simply my experiences while studying my southern style of jow ga. now that i’ve given you a testament of my truth, i ask you to respond in some way that proves that northern style kung fu is so superior to southern style kung fu. we are all waiting, the talk is becoming stale.

“dum spiro, spero..”(while i breath, i hope)

28

Southern Shaolin Temple

Kung Lek wrote:
"It is still to this day a debateable issue as to whether or not an actual temple in Fukien existed.

There is said to be ruins and of course there is the new southern temple built by the prc to manage the interest of martial arts of shaolin and how the northern temple is full to the limit.

I think that the White Horse temple in Putian would be able to furnish fairly sound information on the reality of the southern Shaolin temple because it was there at the alleged time of the southern temples existance and it is still there today."

Interesting reading would be the following book:
Development and decline of Fukien Province in the 17th and 18th Centuries
(edited by) E.B. Vermeer
Sinica Leidensia…vol. XXII
Publisher: E.J. Brill - Leiden/New York/Cologne - 1990
ISBN 9004091718

One of the articles in this book is 'The decadence of Buddhist temples in Fu-chien in late Ming and early Ching’by Tien Ju-K’ang.

In P’u-t’ien (Putian) county there were 14 Buddhist temples (1503) against 3 Taoist temples. There was a total of 191 Buddhist temples and 311 Taoist temples in Fukien in the period 1503 - ca. 1619.
After 1620, due to repression under the ardent Taoist emperor Shih-tsung Buddhist temples were in a pitiable state all over the country.
The compulsory evacuation of the residents on the south east coast in the years 1661 to 1668 led to the total ruin of a great number of remaining temples in the coastal regions.
The resistance against the Ching and the authorities lasted longer in Fukien.

Although the book s not mentioning a Shaolin Temple, it describes vividly the people of Fukien, live in the temples, the decline of those temples and the rebellion against the Ching.
Seems that there is much more material out there then we can imagine.

Probably the southern Shaolin temple was not even mentioned by this name. The monks that went from the Henan Shaolin temple more likely sought refuge in another Chan Buddhist temple in Fukien where they were amongst brothers. A temple with a different name, but where they could practice there Shaolin Martial Arts.

A southern Shaolin temple is much referred to by martial arts in the provinces of Guangdong and Fujian (Fukien), which we can also use as some sort of proof of the existence of such a temple in Fukien. Martial arts that have a history in common but are so different in their practises.

Southern martial arts are much more refined then their northern (Shaolin) counterparts. Just think of the more intricate footwork that is used in southern martial arts.
In northern martial arts, and I’m talking about traditional Shaolin derivatives, they mostly perform there forms in straight lines. When I visited the Shaolin temple in 1983 with a friend, we were invited by the local Shaolin school in Deng Feng. Not a commercial modern Shaolin Wushu school but a traditional Shaolin school. Pure straight forward Shaolin as it used to be, and performance in straight lines. Well we showed them the real southern Shaolin: Hung Gar. The whole school and a lot of spectators watching this north-south exchange applauded our forms, that included the famous ‘tiger crane double form’.
I still have this exchange on super 8 film and a lot of pictures. Maybe I should put this on the web.

South Paw

29

Similarities North & South

There is also a post on the Shaolin Forum about the 5 animals, in which is mentioned the style Wu Xing Ba Fa Quan (5 Animals 8 Methods, which is a part of Da Jing Gang Quan ( A system of northern Shaolin ).

They also have use of the 5 animals as in Hung Gar.
This style has more in common with Hung Gar as it also uses sounds and emotions, for example in their form ‘Xi Nu Ai Le Quan’, the ‘4 emotion Fist’.

South Paw

30

Ego,

Yes, you are.

31

Southern Kung fu is the best Ha!

Mysteri,

I’m very surprised that you said that most of the Northern Stylist you’ve fought were like Tae Kwan Do. If that’s your experience, then I won’t be surprised that peasant kung fu is sufficient to take them out. Tae Kwon Do (the sports version which is most common) is about point scoring, so if you play outside those rules, you’ll have a good chance of winning.

This would also suggest that you have a poor knowledge of Northern Kungfu. Good fighting styles like Hsing I, Piq Gua, Mantis etc don’t emphasis on high kicks. The styles deal well with medium to short range - hence the large arm movements involved with throwing actions. So you can safely assume that if you come up with a Northern styles ( not some tae know do look a like), you could be fighting point blank toe to toe, body to body. Northern stylist are very comfortable and love fighting at this range.

As for mobility, Northerners emphasis a lot on angling. Speaking on say 8 step mantis or 6 harmonies, there is a lot of twisting to change one’s direction of attack and at close range, they use these movements to leg trap or roll with the punch so to speak. Same concepts applied in Ba Gua. As for 7*PM, people learn angling and strategy very early on in the training program - a lot of strategic insersions and depending on the response, the mantis practitioner can at all times modify the strategy. A major advantage of Northern systems is the generalised format undepinning its theories compared to the South.

In terms of Southern systems like Wing Chun, sure it has short punches, but that is still considered to be medium range in the Northern context. Foot work in South systems is very ridgit compared to the North. - That’s particular the case for Wing Chun and Southern Mantis. But I agree, Southern sytles train for strong stances - and it would be foolish to throw something like a tornado kick at a southern practitioner. I guess you could have easily done what you described in your ealier post - but that’s a no brainer. Any fool could have done the same!

Southern styles have a strong emphasis on breaking - like break the ribs, break a leg, break this break that. These skills are useless in a real fight and the training of these only results in injury to yourself.

If you try to break something, your connection to the target will be “Non-analytic” at the moment of impact. Easy to do with a stationary target, but not when the target is moving. That is a major flaw with southern kung fu. The solution space is very narrow.

As for the North, they try to connect at a tangent and discover as much about the “Vectors” of the opposing system. With this information, it is flitered through the gneralized theories, giving an out put of the appropriate course of action to the northern practitioner. The training program of northern systems is designed to make this process higly automated with a healthy does of creativity in “solving the problem”. The design of the solution also is very instinctive.

So yes, Northern systems are stylish in the cold efficiency at disposing opponents but not the fancyful high kicks.

I hope this gives you a better perspective on how your kung fu rates against the Northern systems.

Maximus Materialize!

32

why are you talking abour internal gung fu

we are talking about external gung fu not xing yi tai chi or bai gua(witch i study now) just because your kung fu no good doesn’t mean you should rag on other southern styles, i remmeber a story in sun lu tang’s book about xing yi that talked about a southerner beating all of ching ting hua’s students except for sun lu tang. so ah dude i really don’t think southern gung fu is that bad. i wonder what bad things you have to say about hung gar.

33

again, and why not!!!

ego,

your examples of northern and southern are so out of wack its a wonder you actually understand what you wrote.

to say that north has one thing and south has another shows a complete ignorance of either concepts.

i must have missed what you do, so can you tell me what style you play if any??

also why don’t you go into specifics instead of being so general on your comments on north and south.

also do you practice xing yi, from your comments just written you don’t have a clue on this style.

34

internal and external

Peacemaker,

That post was in response to Mysteri about some examples between Northern & Southern kung fu. I don’t think of things as either being internal or external. I look more for efficiency and whether the training program is practicle in improving the students ability to fight. The “robustness” of the system is important because real fights can happen at any place any time. I’ve got nothing bad to say of Hung Gar or any style for that matter. What I say is from my observation.

Beancurd,

I’m sorry if it didn’t make much sense. i guess I explian things a little unorthodoxly. Ok I tend to see fights as a problem with many dimensions. For a multi-dimension problem (in mathemathics) usually analytic solutions have a higher chance of breaking down. But if you use certain numerical methods the solutions would be stable. Mathemathical modelling is my background and I guess the Northern systems (if taught correctly) is conceptually consistent with how I would build and optimise a numerical model.

Maximus Materialize!

35

Ego..

I will not pretend that i’m not the slightest bit impressed by your knowledge of kung fu. i am even more impressed how you can go deep enough to relate mathematics into kung fu, which not many people can do or even understand, though i understood every bit of waht you said in your reply. do not get me wrong, i’m not here to bash you. it is just when you try to tell a southern stylist that his kung fu is inferior, he cannot help but to be offended. i will also not pretend that i have such a great knowledge of northern kung fu styles because i don’t. again, i’m just expressing my observations and experiences. i am familiar with hsing-i, pi qua, and mantis and i know that they do not emphasize kicks. hsing-i alone has a very powerful close range game as well as pi qua. i know most northern mantis styles emphasize stepping and trapping. but once again, as i have made a general statement about northern styles, i am simply reiterating the way your comments came across to me. it’s my belief that you made your comments without much knowledge of southern kung fu styles in the latter stages of training. as with jow ga, if you’re familiar with it, it consists of only the most practical and effective techniques of hung ga, choy ga and bak sil lum. you seem to know about hung ga. the choy family style (not choy li fut) is known for its swift, complex footwork and kicking/leg techniques. it’s also well know for it’s grappling and groundfighting. in the early stages of my training, stepping was the basis from which everything else followed. if you don’t have good stepping/mobility, then it will reflect negatively on your techniques. that is why the founder of jow ga searched to learn another style because hung ga halted much of his mobility in order to perform the techniques properly. also in the beginning of my training, firm yet soft bridge hands were emphasized. (like silk outside, like iron inside) so within a short amount of time in my system, one may be able to handle themself quite comfortable in a ypical street scenario. we actually have modified bridge hands from mantis which you know will control the opponent at all times and may easily turn into grappling, locking, and throwing techniques. i simply dropped a little bit of knowledge on you in case you didn’t know that about my southern style. i will not disagree with you that some southern styles may seem crappy, but i could also name some northern styles which i can say are, too. if you know anything about my style, especially any major weaknesses, please let me know. otherwise i’m very comfortable and confident fighting any style with my diverse jow ga style. pax vobiscum.

36

now we’re getting somewhere

ego,

okay you like maths i like food, so i’ll go with the food scenario, as they say in chinese, “live to eat, not eat to live”.

your persception of the validity of north to south, i feel is askew, to some degree you are looking at them from an analytical perspective, nothing wrong with that, but it can blinker your perspective.

there was a eagle claw player many many years ago that used this perspective to explain the needs and usage of the various styles in gung fu.

“martial arts is like a smorgasboard, there is much food on the table, yet at different times in life, ones tastes change. to only look at what they like at that particular time is to miss the depth and value of each and every art.”

“some will love a type of food always, others will change their taste quite often, while others will grow to appreciate the exotic foods, it is here that the knowldege, depth and understanding of their chosen art and that of others will become more appreciated”

“there is a basic requirement of the body to live, these basic foods are essential to a good, strong, healthy body, to forget these foods will only be detremental to the player”

he does go on, but i am sure you understand where i am coming from and the points trying to be expressed.

the main point though, is just because one art looks from any perspective to be superior mearly because it has a university perspective, you undermine and give no respect to the junior schooling you first had.

it is true that some southern styles may appear basic, however from an external perspective of xing yi alone it looks very novice, yet the depth of the art is complicated, this goes for any art be it from the south or the north.

maybe you should put the math books down, and go have a really good yum cha, it may change your perspective

[This message was edited by bean curd on 05-19-01 at 07:09 PM.]

37

Ego as if you didn’t hear me the last time

Ego-
shouldn’t you be arguing with Rolls showing him that kung fu does work?I mean if your going to argue then do it for a good cause(no offense intened).

Remember, use your trolling powers for good and not for evil.Go ahead show Rolls what kung fu is made of.

“Always be ready”

38

Something for everyone

Guy’s I’ve heard of the name “Rolls” being mentioned. Who is it? why should i be speaking to that person? Although I’ll be happy to discuss all matters of kung fu with Rolls.

I am not a troll.

As for food, I enjoy yum cha, but i would consider a smogersboard of yummies to be an unnecessary luxury in battle. I’ll be content with basic neutrients like protene, carbohydrates, water, salt etc. it wouldn’t matter if i have 36 different types of chinese tea or water in my canteen.

Maximus Materialize!

39

Basically Rolls is a troll who says that kung fu is full of crapp and that even tkd is better than kung fu (no offense to tkd people).He thinks it’s a good type of dance but not good for self defense.

He’s made several challenges ,with no type of any kung fu knowledge comparing it to karate,and never met up to the challenge,one of those being to a reputable kung fu school.He goes by the name of Ralek now.

Sounds like you would be a good candidate to educate our ignorant friend.:smiley:

“Always be ready”

[This message was edited by NorthernMantis on 05-20-01 at 12:40 PM.]

40

missed the point, so why bother!!

well ego, like i first thought, there really isn’t much point to getting a constructive discussion out of you, you have a very limited perspective.

as for basic food in battle, you don’t, like gung fu have a clue on this, i’ll tell you one thing you should put in your pocket and it’s this,
in battle even the basics of food are a real luxury, LRP’S can be the worst tasting thing, but when you have them, it makes you feel like a king, especially when you haven’t eaten for sometime.

it’s like you perspective on gung fu, totally theoretical with no foundation at all!!!

as the an old boxing cannon says “you start with a ma and a kuen, at the end of your lifetime, it is this ma a kuen you will use, eveything else was just part of the journey!!”