In taiji most of what you do seems to be based off of the solo form . The form can contain alot of different fighting combinations , which can seem quite complicated. Often one move is a whole sequence of attacks as well as defenses. What I’m wondering about is why there is no 2 man form in taiji. Is it because the form is designed to fight multiple people? Is the form mainly for training different energies from different directions? Is there no need for such a form? Instead you have push hands routines which seem more freestyle . Like in xingyi you might learn the 5 element or animals , and them do them freestyle according to the opponents attacks.
Depending on the linage and teacher there are 2 people forms taught.
The Solo forms are the basics for all other training, when you have a question; on what’s correct, we usually go to the form for the answer. This includes 2 person drills, push hands, and 2 person fighting sets.
There are a few versions on Yang fighting sets. My teacher used to change the routine at times to introduce other options and expand on ones thinking. They are usually deigned to allow for a continuous flow, thus sweeps and takedowns and not done. The fight should flow continuously without hesitation from one move to the next, just like the solo set. When performed by two equally skilled people, it can move at a very fast pace. The fighting set can help bridge the gap, between push hands and free sparing. One learns one side first and then the second side. You get to see the attack and neutralization for the same move. Acquiring skill in the 8 energies and 5 direction takes time utilizing the practice of all the Tai Chi training routines.
People who don’t practice two person fighting sets, use other similar 2 person drills, there just not as long an maybe not considered a form. I have found the fighting sets to be educational, challenging, and fun.
There the small and large San Sau in Yang Style… we use that. There are two person drills in Da Lu, pushing hands (When you move around allot and attack and defend putting in strikes) the same with double push hands. There are two person short staff (Bo) san sau etc etc etc…
Syd
Hmmm
Taiji has always had 2 person forms.
Yeah I think we have two man forms.
the two man form can be really quite limiting if you aren’t careful - it is showing you merely one possibility for parts of the form. it doesn’t mean that it is the only application for that movement, nor even the best - just a suggestion on what you could do
I think that application is best developed through free form pushing hands - it can be amazing how applications appear without any conscious volition; the key is to analyse what you’ve done immediately and then work it deliberately - then go back to the form and put the intention of the application into the movement. Obviously you have to drill application once you’ve got it - but I believe that a good method is to find it yourself.
Obviously I train at a school where this is the norm so I don’t have experience of being taught applicaton and then drilling it - the few times we have done it I have felt ‘wrong’ unless it’s an application that I had already developed through free-form…
I’d agree with that, this is called internalizing. The use of free form anything, whether it be push hands, da lu, san sau both small & large, long har chuan and other methods are merely training devices to get you to a stage where these things become instinctive and are not treated like set moces that you perform for given circumstances.
The end result is to be able to roll into one thing and then another without having to think about it. It should be subconcious and automatic and stem from being entirely sung…
You still need all of the above though before you get to the latter so it’s a moot point really.
Syd
I think the idea of internalizing the movements and finding the energies on your own instinctively , makes alot of sense. There have been times where someone would touch my arm with their hand , and I would automatically just do a spiral movement without thinking about it. Sometimes I have hurt peoples hands by accident and they would say it would hurt their bones or joints where they touched me
Hmmmm
It makes even better sense to get someone to teach you how to internalise as then it will cut many years worth of guess work down to many months of solid reality.
RM - I’m not sure what you are saying - how can you be “taught” to internalise? Someone may show me an application that works for them - but when I try and do it, it just doesn’t sit right. Yet in free pushing hands I may use the same movement for a completely different application that ‘suits’ me better.
I guess a combination of both is the way most people work anyway - there are plenty of applications I get shown that work just fine and I can internalise. If you think how many applications there are though, the only way to get an in depth understanding is to find them for yourself. If that is not done then I fear one may end up merely mimicking another’s art, rather than developing one’s own. I’m mindful of the story about the student learning the sword form here - you know the one I mean?#
Syd - I understand what you’re saying about not going to the ground if you’re taiji is good enough. However, I take the approach that mine isn’t currently good enough so in the meantime I shall fill the gaps to cover my shortfalls (forgive the pun). 
Paul
I agree that it doesn’t hurt to know some groundfighting, just incase one ever does go to ground. The guys I train with once a week and myself are working on allot of applications, shoui jiao and chin na right now and Taiji does have it’s own throws and fast wrestling. You have to learn your stand up grappling inside out though and train to counter people who want to take you to ground… this is what we are training for right now.
You may trip over by accident in a fight and then a grappler is on you. Chin na can work on the ground and certain Taiji principles can work on the ground also, but I really think your better off learning to be a better Taiji fighter than trying to learn how to be an average grappler and an average Taiji fighter. If you learn to fight correctly in your range and you learn to control that distance, train every application and eventuality for an attacker coming at you, there is no reason why you should be taken to ground.
If a grappler charges at you and the circumstance is inopportune, you move around and get out of the way until you control the distance and have the advantage to fight at your best distance using your own range. I know this may not come easily but why train in several systems when you have a perfectly superb system right in front of you to train in? All you need to do is train hard in your system and learn to control your opponent and how to control the range and distance of a fight.
This will require allot of sparring and trying to get friends or training buddies to really come at you in various attacks and then try applying your Taiji theory in practice and see what works for you best.
Best, Syd
I take the approach that I would rather learn a fully fledged ground grappling system that has been through all of the learning process that I would have to cover myself, and has skilled and experienced practitioners to test myself against.
In my school there are just not the people interested in working that arena - I get fed the “if your taiji is good enough then you won’t go to the ground” by most of them. It’s their call.
Don’t get me wrong - when I trian BJJ I am using Taiji all the time in the stand up phase, and the mind set has enabled me to keep calm even when getting tied up in knots - I haven’t freaked out and gassed like a lot of beginners (it didn’t stop me getting tapped and choked close to extinction but I did it with dignity ******!).
I have a lot of confidence in my stand up, it’s worked in the past. I just like covering the “what if” and I cannot do that within my school. If that had been on offer then I probably wouldn’t have gone to BJJ - so I’m preaching in favour of the only thing that is available to me I think both work very well for the purpose of street defence - in the UK especially it’s very unlikely to get involved in a row with an Experienced Grappler ™
Kait,
I take the approach that I would rather learn a fully fledged ground grappling system that has been through all of the learning process that I would have to cover myself, and has skilled and experienced practitioners to test myself against.
Again I totally relate to what your saying and respect your right and interest to cover the shortfall where you feel it most. I was actually pointing out that Shoui Jiao is Chinese Fast Wrestling which is very much a part of the Taiji system of fighting along with Chin Na. So you needn’t have gone to BJJ to get what you needed, but again if your school doesn’t go there (girlfriend ;)), then the big obvious one these days will always be BJJ.
A guy I know rolls twice a week in BJJ and enoys it, but he himself admits that BJJ is more sport than anything else and there is a large reliance on Gi’s in order to get moves on, as well as the fact that all the starting positions are on the ground to begin with. Mind you there are varying stages in the BJJ system so…
If you get a chance try and check out Chinese Fast Wrestling (Dog fighting) or Shoui Jiao…
Best, Syd
lol its good to see your not just misinformed on tcc
It’s nice to see you still haven’t given up trying to get my attention. I must be doing something right. I am relating what friends in BJJ have relayed to me, you supply nothing, as usual, but land on everything like a fly laying maggots. L
This is your contribution to every discussion… it seems you think everything is sh!t accept what you have to say…which as usual is nothing. LMAO
Syd there is quite a few posters who I believe what they post. My problem with y9ou and so many like you is that you post bull**** you hear or read somewhere. There’s no work…its all catch words and phrases that are empty.
Syd’s clueless. 
The feelings mutual regarding the both of you. You offer nothing of your own but merely hang your crap out there as though you’ve got answers… your both full of it.
If you were really about the issues or the work as you put it, you’d play the ball and not the man. The fact that you direct your hang ups away from the questions and answers given, but instead to me directly, is indicative of your low life personalities… yes I know, there the only one’s you’ve got.
If you’ve got anything useful to say then by all means argue the point. it seems your not actually capable though. L
lotsa love
lol who am I to argue with someone who thinks he can jump to avoid sweeps. There’s no changing you. I’m typing for those who read this, not YOU. Your going to have to waste at least 3 years training b4 you might stop chasing fantasies.