Some research notes concerning Tang Lang

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

“Shandong Shaolin”

Thank you S.C. for your detailed answers and the wealth of information you provided.

My own concern, (as if that amounts to anything). is that there is no information of any kind on there being any branch of Shaolin in Shandong. Moreover, the period of nearly 800 years of non transmission for Tanglangquan cannot be ignored.

Yet, in your theory, both the fact that there is no such information on a Shandong Shaolin nor a tradition of transmission of Tanglangquan, (in fact all known manuscripts that I have heard of say that there was no transmission), seem to deter you from saying that there was or could have been. This seems problematic from the outset. But I guess you have your reasons.

On an unrelated note:

I offer some information on some of the participants in the meeting (you have been more than generous with your research. Mine is not as extensive but may show why I have some doubt about the meeting ever taking place, regardless of it being at Henan or Shandong):

The tradition holds that the meeting of the Eighteen Champions was held at Shaolin in Henan with Fu Ju holding court over the meeting. In fact, tradition holds that Wong Long was offered a position with Tai Zhu (976-997) in his military, which he declined. (On a positive note, it is also said that such personal selection of officers by Tai Zhu was not uncommon, though I have not read of anyone refusing). So far, so good…

But, as for Lin Cheong and Yan Qing, they were supposed to be outlaws against the Song Dynasty from the early 11th century to the establishment of the Southern Song regime in 1127 about a hundred years later than the meeting at Shaolin. Perhaps they time traveled?

For further clouding of the issue we have only to look at Han Tong who defended a losing side:

“The child emperor of Later Zhou was forced to retreat. The only resistance at the court came from Han Tong who died and was buried with great honors by Zhao Kuangyin”. (who later became emperor Tai Zhu)before the meeting at Shaolin could have taken place. Perhaps he came back from the dead…?

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Song/song-event.html

The tradition of the meeting is intriguing but the more one looks at it, the more it seems just a tradition.

You mention other reserach that is under way by others. I would greatly appreciate your sharing if you find that they have published. Though we may disagree on methods or theories please know that I have great regard for your work in gathering information. You seem to have many good sources.

Libingshao

22

Oh, I see ok, I think half the trouble is just typing out things as they are spewing from my head and not having the time to fully articulate, as I would instead do if we were speaking face to face.
I’m not saying I believe anything yet, just reporting what I have read or heard.

If we really look at this list of masters, the first two don’t have to be there to have been an influence on N . Mantis.

Equally I have heard that Wang Lang learned Sung Tai Tzu from his father, so could be why it is said to be the base, hence being called “in the beginning there was”.
Han Tong Tong Bei is “considered parental” also leaves it open that it is a root style, not necessarily that he was there face to face. I doubt Emperor Tai Tzu was there face to face either (how would he have the time!).

Also, no time frame is given, so maybe these masters came and went over a span of time, not at one meeting. I think it is really a list of Sung Dynasty masters/styles and that their ideas were incorporated by Fu Ju and others into something new.
WHICH people took to mean that there was a full on meeting and then legends arose about it.

It’s not just for Mantis transmission that there is 800 years of data missing, its’ also for most other styles with roots from Sung Dynasty and before (Shaolin Lohan, Chuai Jiao, Ba Fan Shan, Yueh Fei Jia Quan, Cha Quan, Hua Quan, Wah Quan, and lots more, all have this big gap from that time unaccounted for.

Between the Jin invasion during the Sung (and Sung house moving south) and the Yuan dynasty Mongols soon after, there was lots of war time and lots of moving around and lots of hiding out. Many temples were burned down, between the invaders and the big fights between Daoists and Buddhists, there was lots of turmoil.

About Lin Cheong and Yan Qing, where is it “supposed” to be that they were outlaws during that time period? If its only said in the Water Margin book, well that’s a fictional novel, I don’t count what that novel says really. Chinese novels are long known for recreating history to make the story better or to make political comments less overt.

Lin Chong and Liu Xing are both said to have been students of Zhou Tong, which places them during the late 1000s, early 1100s, but younger than Yue Fei.
Yueh Fei died in 1141.

What’s not fitting in is the “tradition” about when Fu Ju did things.
Late 900s or 1100s? Almost a 100 years in there.

23

Thanks for the clarification. This discussion is really interesting. :slight_smile:

These Sung Dynasty era documents, if they exist, must be examined, and their dates verified. Perhaps you need to communicate with Ilya Provatilov, who posted this information originally. If these documents are authentic, they are a major input to the history of martial arts and very important. It would be great if they are real, cause it would lay to rest this topic.

Well, I do communicate with Shifu Profatilov from time to time. He’s quite a busy man to get a hold of. Recently he’s been to Hai Yang, Shandong, the home town of Liang Xuexiang (the progenitor of Greater Meihwa Line) and Sun Yuanchang (the progenitor of my line). So more findings to look forward to from him.

There is a major tome of Shaolin history, etc., coming out from a researcher, Dr. Meir Shahar. He’s a professor at Tel Aviv University; he’s written several articles on Shaolin history (published in Harvard J. of Asiatic Studies and Asia Major) and is finishing up a book on Shaolin. He covers a lot of records examined there, perhaps some answers will come of it?

This would be great news. Thanks for the heads up. I look forward to it’s release.

In my opinion Fu Ju is from a little later than when Song Taizu and Han Tong were around (960 CE).
But that bit I wrote about him going to Shandong, well, nothing proven yet, more research is needed, that’s what some people say, and that is because Shaolin in Henan was said to have been shut down again (by the Jin?). It periodically goes through phases of disintegration and revival all through it’s history. Fu Ju met with people to preserve the martial arts, that is the history that the Jing Gong Shaolin branch carries in its lineage, and he had to go outside of Henan Shaolin to do it. There was a long absense of Shaolin news from that time to almost the Ming time. Dead quiet.

I think Li Bingxiao (the forum member here) gave a great link on the history part concerning Taizu and Han Tong.

Now, if the temple was shut down and (therefore forcing) Fu Ju left to Shandong, why would Fu Ju’s only achievement as an Abbot is preserving MA? I mean isn’t he a Buddhism monk first and foremost? Shouldn’t his responsibility and priority be Buddist study rather that MA? Shouldn’t he be worrying more about re establish the status of Shaolin in Henan rather than thinking about a tournament of sort? It’s the same arguement many used to disprove Bodhidharma’s practicing and teaching MA.

Why else would it be said that Jue Yuan had to work hard to revive Shaolin arts after this time period? When he got to Shaolin (during the Yuan dynasty), barely any martial arts were practiced. It didn’t flower again til the Ming Dynasty.

Well, there’s one explanation of mine that Shaolin enjoys a lot of favors from the Tong Dynasty court. It is allowed to have it’s own troops. This does not have major conflict with the imperial court policy then since feudal lords were allowed to have troops. But that’s the root of the problem of the imperial court. It is said that Song dynasty changed that policy for obvious reasons. All troops belongs to the central government. I don’t think Shaolin would be any exception especially Song imperial court was mainly Doaist friendly. So it would be logical that MA activities become less since the troops were gone. However, Ming Dynasty’s military structure was very much different. There would be local troops but it would be under the straight control of the imperial court (ie civil officiers and eunuch agents). Ming Dynasty, shaolin troops were deployed to fight the Japanese pirates as well.

The story that “Yan Qing and Lin Chong were supposed folk heros in the Water Margin which is based on the Xuan He incident (roughly around 1121 - 1123 CE)”, well I doubt the novel has any accuracy for dating. If Fu Ju was Abbott in 1242, that is long after Yue Fei died (1141?).

I believe it has to be cleared that Fu Ju and Fu Yu are not the same person at all. Fu Ju is possibly ficticous. Fu Yu was a real person.

Yan Qing is mentioned in Shaolin for being the founder of Mi Jong (Lost Track) Quan, so that puts him in Song dynasty,according to that story.

The Yan (swallow) Qing in “water Margin” is another interesting charater. There is one version of the manuscript that has a Yan (color/face) Qing although they are both seemed to be the same at least in what they have to offer (Nian Na Die Fa which bascially is Chin Na skill). BTW, most version today used Yan (swallow) Qing as in the novel. So… My friend, who took Fanzi showed me a form called Qi Bu Quan (seven steps fist) otherwise know as Yan Qing Fan, does have some interesting elements similar to Mantis but it is not too Chin Na oriented.

Lin Chong and Liu Xing are both said to have been students of Zhou Tong, which means their art should be Fantzi or Ba Shan Fan as it was called then, and their techingues added to the 18 masters influence shold be like Yue Fei Jia Quan

Umm… this is new to me. So…

and indeed:
“7.The hand techniques of “Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands” (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing.” is very much the main hand technique, the classic hooked mantis hand that is seen in many Yue Fei forms and in some Fantzi forms today.

Again according to my friend, Fanzi doesn’t actually spent time on grappling. It does not even try to block. It is a strike oriented, dynamic and explosive in nature.

and
“14. The strongest leg kicking technique is “Mandarin ducks kick " (Yuanyang Jiao) of Master Lin Chong.” , which again is classic Fantzi quan item.
And
Ba Shan Fan/Fan Tzi, itself is said to be derived from Wen Family Boxing, of Shandong, who is also listed as one of the 18 masters”:
“9. The “Short Boxing”(Duan Quan) of Master Wen Yuan is the most extraordinary.”

I am not sure about this. So no comment.

No, I haven’t read the actual Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da or the 18 Luohan Gong Texts, wish I had, only people’s writings about them. Like I said, I am making no claims, just reporting what other’s have said or written.
I don;t have a theory on the number of roads, still investigating about it.

Thank you for clarification. I appreciate that. :slight_smile:

Shaolin today has to ask local families to re-teach them Shaolin forms that have disappeared from the temple over time. Sung Tai Tzi 32 Long Fist form was one such form.
After Shaolin burned down and much of its library too, in 1928 or so, there are still working to revive themselves from this and piece together the lost information.

Thanks for the info. This will not be an easy task and I hope this time they will keep better records of who teach what to whom. Otherwise in another hundred year, we will have not problem for the future generations to investigate.

Warm regards

Mantis108

24

Mr. Canzonieri,

The name Mizong, I have been told, came about because his style originally had the name Yan Qing Quan but his followers wanted to throw his government pursuers off the track so to speak so they called it “lost track”. Hence, though I also do not hold to accounting historical weight to the novel, I found this interesting and collaborating information. A great question as it has reminded me to share this also.

mantis108 thank you, I try to share what I find of value.

Libingshao

25

I found some info on Fu Yu, etc that contradicts the legend stuff and verifies something I guessed at (meeting of masters was not one sole event).

Martial arts scholar from Germany Uwe Schwenk has been working with documents from Shaolin that were made public in 2003.

In one of the documents translated it says:

During the reign of Emperor Li Yan (also known as Wu Zong), from 841 to 847, he decried the abolition of Buddhism and Shaolin was closed and put into disrepair. 4600 big temples and 40,000 small temples were destroyed. Monks were scattered and Shaolin martial arts were spread to nearby areas.

30 years after the ending of the abolition of Buddhism, the head of the temple, monk Fa Hua collected funds to repair Shaolin, which took 3 years. Many monks returned.

With the start of the Song dynasty, there was a revival of Buddhism and also martial arts. 1st Emperor Zhao Kwang Yin created some martial arts forms such as 36 Sectioned long fist boxing and 6 step monkey boxing. He once kept his martial arts books at Shaolin.

At the BEGINNING of the Song Dynasty, Monk FU YU became Abbott. He created the 70 character poem, represening the generations of monks at Shaolin, his line contiues there to today (currently at 38th generation).

FU YU invited best martial artists to come and share their knowledge. Three times, for a period of three years EACH TIME (which equals NINE years) knowledge was shared. The forms and techniques were recorded by the Shaolin Monks into a library that was kept in Shaolin.

During the next war, the temple was badly damaged. It was repaired during the third Buddhism revival, during Yuan dynasty Emperor Shi Zu (1260 - 1295, by Monk Yu Gong, one of the most well known Monks of the time.

In the section on Yuan Dynasty, it says that Jue Yuan traveled through China in search of great martial art skills, after meeting Li Sou and his son, and Bai Yu Feng, they worked for 10 years on perfecting Shaolin Martial Arts.

It says that Bai Yu Feng developed the “18 Exercises of Lohan” form, from 18 moves to 72 moves to 173 moves. He collected fragments of neglected patterns and perfected them in the forms. The Lohan style would later see over 170 varient forms. He also created the Five Imitation Boxing forms.
Li Sou was skilled at the Xiao and Dan Hong boxing forms.
At the end of this dynasty, a fire raged through Shaolin and again many buildings were badly damaged.
Restoration was done during the Ming and many new building were made.

26

Timeline of Shaolin

Here’s a Chinese timeline of Shaolin since the Northern Wei to the Republic era. I got this from a Chinese forum. Fu Yu was a person that CLEARLY around 1242 and onward. That is late Southern Song and Early Yuan. There is no entry during Song dynasty. The only explanation for that is that Song imperial court was not exactly Buddhist friendly. They were VERY into Daoism just like the Tang dynasty and perhpas even more. There seems to be evidence that the Jin were also Buddhist friendly. There is no mentioning of Jue Yuan and the 18 Luohan exercises.

<<<

495
496

517

520

534-536

560

577
580

580
581-600
618

621

622
624
625
670-674
683

684
689
723 “”

728

1220 “”

1242
1245
1218 237
1258

1260 “”

1275
1312
1327

1361

1361

1369
1392 
1501
1510
1512

1522

1548 “”
1552-1554

1553

1555 _
_
1558
1561 “”

1563
1565
1567-1572

1574
1625
1588
1609
1613 1683

1619 
1638
1641

1656

1704 “”“”
1735

1740 “”
1747

1750

1828

1850

1854 
1862

1911-1920

1915
1916
1923

1927

1928

1928
“”“
”
1930
1936

Warm regards

Mantis108

27

So, in talking to others associated with Shaolin and in reading Monk Di Qian’s history stuff (in Shaolin Encyclopedia) they say the Fu Yu was from 961 ad.

They say that Fu Yu is the one that brought together the various masters, over a course of 3 years.

So, what is going on, if other sources say Fu Yu is from 1242?

Can it be two different people, is one really Fu JU?

Any clues?

28

From Shaolin Encyclopedia, by Monk Di Qian, here’s what it lists:

Part 4 the famous fighting monks in each generation

Chapter 1 the famous fighting monk in North Wei Dynasty…118
1 Seng Chou 2 Hui Guang 3 Wu Ren 4 Zhi Gang 5 Pu Xue 6 Hong Zun
Chapter 2 the fighting monks in Sui Tang dynasty..127
7 Zhi Cao 8 Yun Zong 9 Shan Hu 10 Hu Yang 11 Pu Hui 12 Ming Song
13 Ling Ying 14 Pu Sheng 15 Dao Guang 16 Zhi Sheng 17 Zhi Xing 18 Feng
19 Man 20 Zi Huan 21 Zi Sheng 22 Kong Kong 23 Ling Yin 24 Wei Kuan
25 Yuan Jing 26 Fu Hu
Chapter 3 the fighting monks in Song Jin dynasty…151
27 Ling Qiu 28 Zhi Rui 29 Fu Ju 30 Zhi Sheng 31 Hui Wei 32 Hui Lin
33Hai Zhou 34 Hong Wen 35 Jue Ze 36 Jue Yuan 37 Qiu Yue 38 Cheng Hui
39 Zong Yin
Chapter 4 the fighting monks in Yuan dynasty…158
40 Zong Shu 41 Fu Xing 42 Fu Zhen 43 Hui Ju 44 Hui Ding 45 Hui Jing
46 Hui Ming 47 Hui Yan 48 Hui Yuan 49 Zhi An 50 Zhi Ju 51 Pu Ming
52 Zi An 53 Zi Zhan 54 Da Zhi 55 Zhi Tai 56 Shao Yuan 57 Jin Na Luo
58 Jue Xun 59 Liao Gai 60 Jue Kui 61 Jue Ru 62 Jue li 63 Jue Xian
64 Jue Jing

29

Care to revive this thread?

I’ve since been able to read a copy of Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu book,
and not related to that I’ve been tracing Shaolin moves and postures as far back as I could.

The earliest martial movements from Shaolin seem to come from a series of soft and hard Qi Gong, that are composed of 108 movements.

This collection of loose techniques can be traced back to the Tang Dynasty at least, they were introduced from India (via Indian martial monks and Indian Body guards bringing scripture to and from india/shaolin) and mixed these with Chinese origin movements from Shaui Jiao and Tong Bei.

There is not one move in the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan that is not found in this 108 move Qi Gong form.

This 108 Qi Gong can be done in martial art self defense mode as well.
It contains within it the movements from the classic Dragon/Tiger Qi Gong that Shaolin was known for later in time, also it contains many Monkey stepping and techniques, postures, etc later seen in Tai Tzu quan (north and south versions).

Because Tai Tzu Quan resembles this Soft hard Qi Gong so much, this Qi Gong is very much like Chen Tai Ji Quan as well.

I would say that ALL truly Shaolin created martial arts originate from this Qi Gong (which has classic movements from Tong Bei and Shuai Jiao in it). And any style or form that is NOT obviously related to it comes from an outside tradition that was later incorporated into Shaolin, but is not ORIGINALLY from Shaolin.

Such as Tang Lang.

Anyways, I am under the impression, currently, that the “Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu” is different Qi Gong method from this early Shaolin stuff. Although I see in this “Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu” that some of the postures in the 18 Luohon Gung are the same as those in many old Luohan forms that come from Shaolin originally (postures such as “Open the Window” for example).

What Tang Lang and this early Shaolin have in common though is Hong Dong Tong Bei (which is called Chang Quan there, long fist). Hong Dong Tong Bei is very similar to both Tang Lang and to the movements in the ancient soft hard qi gong.

Look at this video of Hong Dong Tong Bei practioners doing their forms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWjMF1Et_0Y&mode=related&search=
Especially look at the third person, you can really see this style as a root style to tang lang.
At the same time, this Hong Dong Tong Bei is obviously a Long Fist style, not exactly like the other Tong Bei (Chi, Shi, White Ape, etc styles). But it is more like the movements and postures of Shaolin quan and this soft hard qi gong that it is like anything else.

Also, the basic Hooking (Gou), Pulling (Lou), Plucking (Cai) and Hanging (Gua) methods that are common for all Praying Mantis branches is found in the middle of this 108 soft hard qi gong.

30

It is an interesting thread to revive. So here’s a point of interest for me Sal.

In a previous post you talk about the earliest figures and mention Liang Xuexiang. You then say that Seven Star Mantis started with Li San Jian.

What evidence or clues do we have that the style ‘started’ with Li San Jian? I mean, as opposed to Li San Jian just being the earliest ‘known’ person in the Seven Star Family stories and lineage?

31

[QUOTE=Redfish;745564]It is an interesting thread to revive. So here’s a point of interest for me Sal.

In a previous post you talk about the earliest figures and mention Liang Xuexiang. You then say that Seven Star Mantis started with Li San Jian.

What evidence or clues do we have that the style ‘started’ with Li San Jian? I mean, as opposed to Li San Jian just being the earliest ‘known’ person in the Seven Star Family stories and lineage?[/QUOTE]

You are correct, by started, I meant merely, earliest known person, clarification.

But, who started calling it “7 Stars” first? The 7 stars is the big dipper, it represents the classic mantis posture with the front leg being out with heel down and toes up, making a “check mark” shape with the leg.

The earliest known occurance of this posture in Shaolin is again found in this soft hard qigong.

Is this posture found in the earliest known styles (song dynasty) from Shandong province? The Ditang style (non ground forms, it has lower and upper levels) of shandong is where many shandong styles are derived from. I dont think it is there. Many postures from tang lang are seen in this old Ditang style.

BUT:
It is found in Fanzi quan, which is one ancient style done in Shandong area.

32

The name of the book "“Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu” intrigues me.

The Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da is this style, from late Song / early Yuan dynasty era, created by Fu Yu, and it was practiced in Shandong are too (how did it get there?), in the Henan region it is nearly extinct now, it is only done in a small area of southern Henan:

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd2/coll_shaolin12.htm
http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin14.html

On that second page, please note:
“3rd routine also named as “Hook Hand” or “Praying Mantis Posture”. Its hand movements imitated movements of praying mantis. An important routine in Xing Gong Fist. Only a few people in southern part of Shangdong province knew this form.”

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Also something to note, after the 1735 burning of Shaolin, monk Guangming went to Shandong and taught there. What he taught is now called Fo Han Quan: Buddhist Boxing. An influence on Shandong martial arts?

Also: Sun Haiming, Tang Lang Boxing expert from Shandong, taught Seven Star and Plum Blossom styles in Anhui Province; these styles were later combined with local Shaolin Boxing style into a system of Shaolin Tang Lang Boxing.
Note: “Local Shaolin Boxing” of Anhui.

33

This site is one of a few that gives the story of Wang Lang fighting General Han Tong ( of tong bei fame and one of the 18 masters that Tang Lang is based on). And that Emperor Tai Tzu (Zhao Kwangyin) admired Wang Lang’s martial arts and ask he to be general

http://www.cc-am.com/ingles-Tanglang.htm

Okay, well, we know WHEN Gen Han Tong died, he was killed by Zhao when he tried to take over the empire (and suceeded).

So, unless Wang Lang fought Gen Han Tong when he was young, the Gen Han Tong was already dead by the Song Dynasty start.

So now what?

34

I noticed that on the statue of Wang Lang in Laoshan it says that Wang Lang is also called Yu Qi.

It’s not mentioned in any pre-war books or articles on the subject. It suggests that modern Shandong clubs have found some new evidence or information on this. It even implies that someone there has identified Wang Lang.

Could anyone with links to the Shandong scene elaborate on this?

35

With All Due Respects…

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;745554]Care to revive this thread?

I’ve since been able to read a copy of Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu book,
and not related to that I’ve been tracing Shaolin moves and postures as far back as I could.[/quote]

I understand there is a version of this book available online recently. I have yet to obtain one but I have read some other versions and they are more or less the same thing with different parts edited in different orders or certain names, terms changed here and there. So… my take is that don’t bank on any of them being the most truthful edition. We can only approach or use the book (any version) with utmost caution.

The earliest martial movements from Shaolin seem to come from a series of soft and hard Qi Gong, that are composed of 108 movements.

I am curious as to which soft and hard Qigong series that you are referring to? You would not be talking about the 5 animals forms of Bai Yufeng or renditions of that?

This collection of loose techniques can be traced back to the Tang Dynasty at least, they were introduced from India (via Indian martial monks and Indian Body guards bringing scripture to and from india/shaolin) and mixed these with Chinese origin movements from Shaui Jiao and Tong Bei.

Is there solid documentation or is this one of your hypothesisi? It’s perfectly okay to hypothesize, theorize and all but eventually you will need to prove it. So…

There is not one move in the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan that is not found in this 108 move Qi Gong form.

well, not one move in any of the collegiean wrestling or one move in Judo is not found in Shuai Jiao does that mean that Shuai Jiao is grand daddy of everything? Huam and Champs are nearly 97 the same in genes, does that mean we are the same spieces or did we share the same ancestors? We simply can’t jump to conclusion, period.

This 108 Qi Gong can be done in martial art self defense mode as well.
It contains within it the movements from the classic Dragon/Tiger Qi Gong that Shaolin was known for later in time, also it contains many Monkey stepping and techniques, postures, etc later seen in Tai Tzu quan (north and south versions).’

Well, this 108 Qigong is the mother of all JKD form/system then right? It’s got everything and it explains everything, how nice?!

Because Tai Tzu Quan resembles this Soft hard Qi Gong so much, this Qi Gong is very much like Chen Tai Ji Quan as well.

You do realize that there are tons of Taizuquan and each may or may not look like each other but they are all saying they are the only real deal right?

I would say that ALL truly Shaolin created martial arts originate from this Qi Gong (which has classic movements from Tong Bei and Shuai Jiao in it). And any style or form that is NOT obviously related to it comes from an outside tradition that was later incorporated into Shaolin, but is not ORIGINALLY from Shaolin.

So you are suggesting that Tong Bei and Shuai Jiao -> this 108 Qigong form (which is brought from india) - > all true shaolin martial systems. So Tong Bei and Shuai Jiao is the root of all Shaolin fighting systems? In that case, there really is not Shaolin Kung Fu in the beginning then?

Such as Tang Lang.

:confused: :eek: How did you come to this conclusion?

Anyways, I am under the impression, currently, that the “Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu” is different Qi Gong method from this early Shaolin stuff. Although I see in this “Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu” that some of the postures in the 18 Luohon Gung are the same as those in many old Luohan forms that come from Shaolin originally (postures such as “Open the Window” for example).

You do realize that there is the Daoist immortal Chen Tuan mentioned in one of the moves? Other “water margin” characters also get mentioned in the text as well. Open the window is so generic that it’s … oh well…

What Tang Lang and this early Shaolin have in common though is Hong Dong Tong Bei (which is called Chang Quan there, long fist). Hong Dong Tong Bei is very similar to both Tang Lang and to the movements in the ancient soft hard qi gong.

Really? Are you sure that Tanglang has little to with other stuff such as Fanziquan ( a southern method). Do you know that Tanglang’s Pai Da (body impact training) is more akin to concept of Xingyi and the dynamics of Fujian Baihe or its derivitives’ (Okinawan te) San Zhan impact training? Are you aware that the training structure of most Shandong Tanglang if not all is pretty much identical to Fanziquan, Xingyiquan, Fujian Baihe, and Okinawan based Karate? Do you recognize that the Tanglang styles that have heavy Tongbei and Shuai Jiao influences are mostly found in the Beijing area but not in Shandong? Am I claiming that Tanglang came from Fanziquan? No, I am just saying that there is a remarkably close resemblance that we can’t afford to ignor a possible connection. Whether it is true or how much it is true, we have just to work on it more to find out.

Look at this video of Hong Dong Tong Bei practioners doing their forms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWjMF1Et_0Y&mode=related&search=
Especially look at the third person, you can really see this style as a root style to tang lang.
At the same time, this Hong Dong Tong Bei is obviously a Long Fist style, not exactly like the other Tong Bei (Chi, Shi, White Ape, etc styles). But it is more like the movements and postures of Shaolin quan and this soft hard qi gong that it is like anything else.

Also, the basic Hooking (Gou), Pulling (Lou), Plucking (Cai) and Hanging (Gua) methods that are common for all Praying Mantis branches is found in the middle of this 108 soft hard qi gong.

No offense, if I look hard enough I will see Bodhidharma’s face with the tea leaves at the bottom of my cup, after all it is he, who cut off his eyelids which became the tea tree that we make teas out of today, is that a prove of Bodhidarma’s existence? Please Sal, I understand you are working out stuff but please be a little bit more scientific and thorough than what you are proposing. No trying to rain on your parade, Just some thoughts…

Regards

Mantis108

36

YEAHAH!

Well, forgive me, but I made a load of outlandish statements just to get you guys to come back and get involved in the original discussion. No one was responding to my original request to revive the thread.

Thanks!
Even your responses to my made up stuff really give a lot of great information to discuss.

This is the only we all have in common that we can discuss CMA origins.

If I am forgiven, can we discuss details of the original topic?

Thanks!

Serious things I would like to discuss:

DO you think it is possible that there is more than one Wang Lang, one from Sung and one who took the name as a cover in the Qing era (such as Yu Qi the swordsman)?

Or do you think that it is possible, depending on how the Chinese is interpreted, since so many names of the 18 masters are Song dynasty related, that Abbott FuJu brought them together, but Wang Lang is mentioned as absorbing the best ideas from these Song period people, but that he did it during the Qing Dynasty, and that the texts are not necessarily saying that he was also from the Song era?

Another topic - just for theoretical discussion, detailed facts we’ll introduce later.

Shaolin died out and whatever martial arts they were doing many times in history, that we know. After 1928, they really lost everything and in 1980s, they had to get people from lineages that had left the temple back in history from all over Henan and other provinces, that still did their forms to come there and re-introduce forms/ etc back to the place. And most of these seem to be stuff created during the Qing Dynasty. Except for a dozen forms, most the the 365 known Shaolin forms are documented (on paper or verbally) to be from real people who created the forms in Qing dynasty times.

The only ancient stuff from Shaolin that looks to me at least is being originally from there is the Xin Yi Ba, which is “nothing but” a 144 move exercise series that mimics the movements from working a farm, mostly using the hoe; and local farm and wild animals.
And, further back there is the soft hard qi gongs they did that originally are from India, via Indian Body Guards that accompanied Indian monks, and these they mixed with Tong Bei and Shuai Jiao types of movements to later create self defense movements from the qi gong. Shaolin associated styles from the Song Dynasty seem to have absorbed this Shaolin soft hard qigong ideas and body mechanics. (for example much Tai Tzu is so much like it).

You can’t look at Shaolin done there now to investigate anything to do with origins,
you have to look at the “Shaolin” Quan that has dispersed all over China over the dynasties to see what might be going on.
If one does look at as many of these dispersed Shaolin Quans as one can, (Northern long fist only), they do all seem to share attributes found in the old hard soft qi gong such as stepping pattern, hand qestures (that match Indian hand Mutras), ways of opening and closing the joints, breathing methods, theory and strategy, movements that yield/evade, absorb, redirect, and then neutralize an attack, body mechanics, etc.

None of these are anything like Shandong Tang Lang. I really don’t think that this ancient Shaolin (stuff based on Hard Soft Qigong) had anything to really do with the development of Tang Lang. Tang Lang seems to come from other sources, maybe these sources were initiated by Abbott FuJu, but they aren’t based on what Shaolin was doing previously.

The legend of Jue Yaun and Bai Yu Feng merely says that Jue had to go to Luoyang to re-discover internal methods that were by then lost at Shaolin.

I think that the Yuan dynasty caused Shaolin to lose everything the accumulated and it spread out from then.

I don’t see how in any way that Shaolin developed Tang Lang there, it is way too foreign to what most Shaolin stuff is like (if you make the soft hard qi gong methods, etc as the standard for “real” Shaolin).

37

Sal

It’s hard to understand what you’re getting at in your posts. But you did just clearly say that Tang Lang seems foriegn from Shaolin Kung Fu.

For me, 7* Tang Lang has all the characteristics of Shaolin Kung Fu inside. The stances and stepping, the hard training methods, the Qigong aspect. if you look at any traditional Hung Gar or Choi Lei Fut or Eagle Claw you can see the same stuff at the core.

You make this point about Shaolin Kung Fu being in the styles but you also make comparisons to the (highly questionable) book too. I dunno what to make of that.

For sure, the modern Shandong scene movements now seem foriegn to it. But that’s them and no-one else and only after WW2.

You mentioned Yu Qi again. So what’s the story there? Where does that come from?

38

Hi Sal,

I totally understand where you are coming from. So no worries, I am just messing with you as you were messing with us. :wink:

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;745748]The name of the book "“Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu” intrigues me.[/quote]

The book in and of itself is not a bad book in the sense that it does contain a lot of good information. The only problem is that it has lots and lots of artistic licensing and great disregard of actual historic facts. The person, Sheng Xiao Dao Ren, was highly likely a native of Shandong and he reportedly was teaching in the capital city of Manchurian territory back in the mid 1700s. Some have suggested that Dao Ren in Shandong dialect is more like a scholar or respected knowledgeable person not necessarily meant that he had any affiliation with Daoism or Buddhism. Given the content and the quotes that are used in the book, Sheng Xiao Dao Ren could have been a student of martial schools that prepared students for national martial exams during that time. He could have been given or assigned teaching job at one of those schools in the territory as it is custom that those who are more mature and didn’t advanced into military office would be assigned teaching jobs and later he retired back to Shandong area. It is possible that he’d love to read and listened to pop culture martial arts fictions and had a vivid imagination (no wonder he failed his exams). This profile would fit the Dao Ren designation and the characteristics of the book IMHO.

The Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da is this style, from late Song / early Yuan dynasty era, created by Fu Yu, and it was practiced in Shandong are too (how did it get there?), in the Henan region it is nearly extinct now, it is only done in a small area of southern Henan:

The reason that it’s not in Henan is because it’s never been there in the first place! The book is a product of indigenious Shandong civil culture and martial arts. It has nothing to do with Henan Shaolin.

BTW, Yu Qi was kind of a folk hero of Shandong during the late Ming early Qing time. There are records and folklores of his exploits but no one can be certain of his final days after a failed insurgent. He is not Wang Lang per se. Is it possible that some people model the mythical Wang Lang after Yu Qi? Well, it’s entirely possible. But to say that he was the real Wang Lang then it is bending the facts quite a bit.

39

okay, so say for argument’s sake, we ignore this Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu" book for now.

And, we go back to the research that Illya P. has done, which he says:

“However, most likely, Wang Lang lived (if he ever existed) at the beginning of the Northern Song Dynasty (969-1126) dynasties, primarily because of the existence of one source, independent from Praying Mantis Boxing traditional history. This source is two books that survived the fire when Shao Lin monastery was burned down by Chinese militarists (warlords) in 1928. The first is “Records of Shao Lin Monastery” and the second is “Records about Shao Lin Boxing”. Both books contain the same data about significant events which took place in the monastery at the beginning of Song Dynasty.”

But first:

Both Tang Lang and the Shaolin Xing Gong (aka: Xin Gang) style have almost the same origin story:

Shaolin Xing Gong style - “legendary” Martial Monk Abbott Fu Ju (may or maybe not the Religious Monk Abbott Fu Yu who lived from 1203-1275, Yuan Dynasty/Southern Song Dynasty era) invites various masters for a period of Nine (3 sets of 3 years each) years (THE symbolic Buddhist number 9 of course), after that a new series of martial arts “forms” are developed. Why? Cause Shaolin KF was quite dead by his time period. When did this happen? Sometime during one of the Song Dynasties.

All Shaolin records that I have seen preserved by Shi DeJian’s lineage show that the Xing Gong Quan dates back to these sessions, and it is a series of about a dozen forms. It is also called Vajra style. It is a special Shaolin style that today is almost extinct and in Henan Province it is practiced by a few people in the southern parts of the province.

Many of the forms are described on vcd now (in case you want to see them):
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd2/coll_shaolin12.htm
http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin14.html

Tai Tzu is one of the styles that these Fu Ju sessions has incorporated.
One of the forms of this system: Po Lian (destroy) Quan mixed in a lot of Shaolin Tai Tzu (a specific style dating from early Northern Song Dynasty reign of Zhao Kuang Yin, who lived from 927-976).

Also, the third form of the Xing Gang system is a Mantis Hand based form, and this form was practiced in Shandong province. HOW did it get there? Or did it start there first before arriving at Shaolin?
Some Shaolin and non-Shaolin Tai Tzu forms contain the Mantis hand movements.

On the other hand, Shi Dejian’s records preserved from Shaolin place Fu Ju at around 961, which is indeed within Emperor Zhao Kuan Yin still being alive.

The Tang Lang version adds Wang Lang to a 18 masters list, and has Mantis being the style that is the end result.

1 - I don’t see how Wang Lang fought General Han Tong during the early Song Dynasty, when this General was killed at the start of that dynasty. He was stationed normally in Shandong province though before died defending the previous dynasty.

2 - But Illya’s site says that the late 900s was the time period that Wang Lang and Fu Ju were said to have done their martial arts meetings with the various masters, which was AFTER Tai Tzu Emperor Zhao was dead already, he lived from 927-976. So that makes the #1 and #2 “foundational people” already dead by this time.

3 - of the legendary 18 masters, most seem to be from Song Dynasty. And, “a full one third of the masters listed all come from fictional novels. Yan Qing (#7) and Lin Chong (#13) come from the Water Margin and Emperor Taizu (#1), Han Tong (#2), Zhang En (#3) and Huai De (#11) come from the Fei Long Quan Zhuan (Chinese: – “The Complete Flying Dragon Biography”)” (though these 4 people of course really existed during and before the Song Dynasty’s creation).

4 - Other extant Shaolin manuals (or their copies) that survived the 1928 fire give some clues:

“The Manuscript of Shaolin Boxing” records that the Song Tai Tzu Emperor visited the Shaolin Temple and sent famous generals to Shaolin to teach monks about the art of war and at the same time learn Shaolin Martial Arts. The Great Song Emperor himself was very good at boxing too. He knew 32 moves of the Long Fist boxing.

“The Shaolin Annals of Martial Arts Monks” records “The Great Emperor of Song Dynasty, Zhao Kunyin, as a grandmaster of martial arts. He supported the head abbot of the Shaolin Temple and helped organize 3 National Competitions of Martial Arts for monks, his generals, and folk martial experts.” This represents the first time in history that a national level tournament combined the talents of Shaolin, the military, and civilian martial expertise. In total, 18 formal systems came together and competed.

5 - As stated earlier, in the preserved books of Shi Deqian, he put Fu Yu around 961, which is well within the time that Emperor Zhao Kuan Yin was still alive, and when he mostly likely would have had the time to visit Shaolin.

6 - Abbott Fu YU, from the 1200s, is credited with calling together the 26 most proficient monks to determine and study the most essential techniques of Shaolin Kung Fu. After training the monks in these techniques (which is the Shaolin Kan Jia Quan style), he sent them out to guard the 13 tollgates.
Can this event becoming conflated and confused with the earlier Fu Ju event?

7 - I know we had a long discussion here already once about Yuan Dynasty religious monk abbot Fu YU being verifiable as to his existence and Song Dynasty martial monk Fu Ju is not being verified (so far).
But, Shi Dijian in his books says that Fu Ju and Fu Yu were two separate people from two different time periods, that did similar things (bring people together to guard the temple).

Comments?

40

Sal

From your post I gather that Master Illya has, or has access to, two original history books that were taken from the Shaolin temple during it’s collapse in the warlords period. And in these books it directly mentions “Wang Lang”?

Is that what you’re saying. Because the Chinese language books and research after WW2 on this until now have never found any direct independent mention of him or any truly credible sources on the subject in general.

You say the sources you have seen, what have you seen?

Redfish.