So What is Wing Chun Defense?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

A blocking system? Avoidance? Deflection?

Yes, all of the above.

Good, now that we’ve got that out of the way, here’s what I’m really getting at…Many people in the wing chun world talk about the art being concept based, and therefore there are no specific techniques to be used in any given situation - including while on defense. Because the art is “concept” based…not “technique” based.

We’ve all heard this, right?

Well if this is true, then what are the following wing chun “moves” for?

Pak
bil
tan
garn
bong
lan
chuen
jut
huen
fuk
gum
lop

Now I’m purposely not going to get into (not now, anyway)…how bong can be (or should be) used against this, how pak can be (or should be) used against that, or how bil, (or bil/lop) as defense can be (or should be) used against something else, etc…

but rather, I’m throwing this out to the forum:

If such ideas about how to use various wing chun moves aren’t valid as defense (or as part of one’s wing chun defensive maneuvers)…in addition to outright “avoidance” as defense (via footwork and angling)…

if such ideas about the above moves aren’t valid when it comes to a blocking or redirecting type of defense…

then what are the above moves actually for?

Now Yes, I realize that moves like lop, and lan, and one or two others that have been mentioned can be used as part of offense…

but all of the moves mentioned above can be part of one’s wing chun defense, ime. And in specific situations, imo, as opposed to other “specific” situations wherein using A would make no sense against that uppercut…but using B would make sense, for example.

But where are the moves? Where is the defense? Do you use them?

If not, why bother learning them? If you don’t use them, (and assuming that you do spar/fight, whatever)…then what’s the reason why you don’t (or can’t) use them?

Some people might say that if you extend your arm out as part of a defensive manuever you are exposing yourself to getting hit - and at certain distances this is true, imo…but at other distances this objection makes no sense to me whatsoever.

But where are the moves? (As defense) Who’s using them? And if not, why not?

And in anticipation of someone saying that these moves as defense are unnecessary - because you should be attacking (and therefore you’re not on defense)…well, yes…

but you’re not always going to be attacking; alas, there will be times when defense is an absolute must. :cool:

So again: Where are the moves?

2

good post. WC is concept based, but to say there are no techniques is ludicrous

some people out there are eager to call anything under the sun WC. for example, alan orr’s fighters use 0% WC IMO

3

On Vistor’s list—pak, lop etc

Folks have different points of view in wing chun. IMO- speaking for myself-I do wing chun and have been doing it regularly for years- since 1976. Wing chun has served me well and continues to do so.
There are more hand motions than those listed (pak, lop, gum…etc)The forms are full of them.

In developing (as opposed to sparring or fighting)- developing the body structure properly is important-good yee gee kim yeung ma helps do that both externally and internally.
Lots of single and two hand motions in wing chun.

Each hand motion has it’s own characteristics and details in training, and the hands energy comes with training the body.Then one learns to move the body and the hands in a coordinated way through a very rich variety of balanced footwork via chum kiu, biu jee, jong, kwan and do work.
One learns to ADJUST one’s motions with timing to other folks through different kinds of chi sao, gor sao, lat sao, sparring- plus possible experience in fighting if it occurs..

The motions of wing chun can be used for defense and offense and related control.. Sometimes the offense can be the defense and sometimes the defense can be the offense.In application the motions will be adjusted in different contexts…and the under trained eye can miss the wing chun.

Prior to contact proximity one can walk or run naturally. After developing good stand up one can bend, roll, shrimp, bridge, jump etc in different contexts.Understanding and using the body structure assists in doing those things.

Wing chun is NOT the only method of self defense-but it is a very effective way.It gets better with practice, usage and time. IMO anyway FWIW.

joy chaudhuri

4

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1000673]A blocking system? Avoidance? Deflection?

Yes, all of the above.

… Well if this is true, then what are the following wing chun “moves” for?

Pak
bil
tan
garn
bong
lan
chuen
jut
huen
fuk
gum
lop

… So again: Where are the moves?[/QUOTE]

A neat little list there, and something that can be re-arranged/added to etc. What I would say is remove the tan, bong and fuk (fook) as they are primarily arm alignments and I would go as far as to say they are not ‘techniques’ as such. To elaborate, you can have a bong pak sau, tan pak sau, fook pak sau and so on. I also refer to these ‘positions’ as ‘seeds’ of Wing Chun, from where everything grows.

The list are singular terms that everyone should be familiar with, and IMO they can all be used for attack & defense. Why I say this is because they’re all ‘neutral’ terms. It’s only when you interpret the term and form a shape and action which determines what it looks and feels like. And if you’re not a WC practitioner the terms may make no sense at all (or in many cases you may have another term for the movement thats specific to that family/style)

So, in short, use everything at your own will. To attack and defend makes little difference to the terms although I’m a believer of learning to defend FIRST!

A frequent saying in the hall I trained at was ‘just in case’, suggesting that the hand is always there as a neutral seed, and it’s the decision to do something with the given seed that determines the term you refer to.

Action or reaction/attack or defence, the singular term is the same.

5

WCK is like a key - if you don’t stick it in, it doesn’t work. All the movements Victor listed is a hand pass from one to another, or to offset the opponent’s balance.

6

Each defense technique is a system within itself. Because it is concept based, each of these techniques can have a complete fighting system built behind it.
I liken or compare it to jap jujitsu. I have only about 60 techniques, period. But because it is also based on concepts, each of these techniques have 10 or 12 applications. So it can total up to well over 600 applications. With Wing chun it appears to be an endless number of applications. Just depending upon the situation. By training drills you simply train the body to use the most appropriate technique for the situation at hand without even thinking. If you have to take the time to determine what technique would work best you are going to get hit. You simple determine the appropriate technique to use against a particular attack and drill train that until it is part of your being.
Most people will have a very distinct approach to attack or defend. Depending on their fight training, if they have any. And this will generally lead to your use of a certain technique or system of those techniques more than others, simply because they are more appropriate.
I am thinking I remember reading about a fellow called Tan Sao. Whatever his sir name was. He had a complete system built around tan sao and it was well known.

7

the concept is attacking as defense…the techniques we use make it possible to deliver unbroken attacking assaults .

If we have an attacking action inbuilt into our every action it makes it possible to do the idea…many many schools teach anything but this…sadly…

by definition, ‘sticky hands’ is what you will get…stuck sticking to hands…not developing as a fighter , like a boxer, who uses space and timing, movement, hitting bags so they have intuitive judgement for ‘hitting’ things’ and not being a target themselves…

idea is one hand is always attacking

the primary attack cycle…
jum sao ‘inwards elbow’ strike combo
tan sao ‘outwards elbow’ strike combo

the reason we use a tan and jum when facing the dummy is we dont know which to use …it depends on position we are to the guy, which arm is closest to them…closest to them arm [tan] furthest [jum] the energy of the strikes is there regardless of contact with their arms or not…iow we just hit like anyone striking..only we also have the ability to keep the leading strike out and have a defensive line with it…leading to what hand we use to keep the next strike moving in…iow how to make way for the wu attack…movement? let their action clear our required space? use a clearing hand ? follow them to pressure …?

man sao lead attacking hand [ aka lead, asking or what should I hit you with hand ]

wu sao rear attack making hand…aka the attacking answer to the leads attacking question

Pak .. to clear the path for the strike , to make an attack from wu

bil … to make a ‘strike’ action in forms , not really about fingers so much as make a gesture of striking …like double bil after double jut in SLT…

tan… a strike position using the outside of forearm to slide into strikes , elbow spreads off the line not the hand..tan has nothing to do with the hand, tan doesnt leave the line

garn… low level block from bil gee…a block is always used with the other hand attacking…jum sao…added to SLT because lowering huen parry midsection didnt go low enough…

bong … used to recover the attacking line so our rear attack hand ‘wu’ can make an attack…bong energy moves sharply left or right like a pak energy…to attack from wu

lan … a way to shove /trap refacing as we flank, like a po-pai push but with elbow/forearm attack. used in conjunction with the hips as CK

chuen ? not sure your word/term

jut… lead strikes intercepted are cleared with jut …disrupting stances etc…attacking
primary attack action due to its ability to keep you striking if you miss or not…

huen lowering forearm deflections used as a mid section parry as other hand attacks. in dummy we do huen & jum strikes [many use huen alone as a wristy turn , it should be used with forearm as a midsection parry , why low gaun sao was added, the lowering huen /forearm didnt go as low as gaun sao…] ie someone throws a midsection strike we use the lowering forearm , keeping elbow in, to displace the strikes force as we use a jum strike with natural inward covering energy to take the flank back…done alot in dummy ,many do thsi with ahigh gaun sao losing the jum attacking action, turning it into a double handed defense..no attack!! doesnt work if elbow goes out, so dummy has to be low to make sure you dont open and do ‘kao sao’ bad thing ; )

fuk pushing elbow inwards/forwards , neutral wrist for developing elbow…SLT kept low to avoid raising the elbows in training, taught as a strike recovery position in drills.
strike make extension, recover back to correct positions of fok centered and ready to attack.

gum. pinning trapping hand allowing rear wu to make an attacking action

lop ..NOT JUT…if the arm intercepted is too strong we re-direct the attack by turning the opponent, requires the stance turns to make a new attack line …hand and body move as one ..not hand grabs space and moves alone…offline opening up your center..

low kick allows continued attack with no strikes possible.. guy moves at us we kick him.

po-pai to shove the guy back into our strike range, displace structure as we attack into the space we make …flowing attacks can use strike entry , guy covers up, shove enough to gain strike distance again…lan sao can be this too..

no kwan sao…this is misinterpretation , making a 2 handed response to a single arm…you can do anything ..but if your going to side step a bull no need to make 2 hand parry the horn if its already passing you by…kwan is in dummy as cycling into and out of preceding arms into next attack cycles…ie high jum strike [ not high gaunsao] turns into bong energy ‘slap’ lower arm…as low gaun [ from slt] cycles back to striking tan [ same idea s slt form tan strike , low gaun, back to tan strike] always having strike with parry…cycle parry becomes strike, , strike becomes parry…

NOW tactically we need to isolate the potential for 2 arms to face us…while we cycle 2 striking arms and a leg at the guy from flanks…we move and position ourselves as they move…adopting side stances to shift and face the sides presented to us…ie a leading jab, a step with right x at us…

we use distances and angles to make our striking attacks work as guided…

all the techniques of the system allow cycling attacking actions iow one hand can always attack…

good cardio for maintaining assault…you need to stop to get your breath :smiley: thats what I wait for…kidding.

the drills make our strikes have an inbuilt safety line so w can starike with little thought for our defensive line…by the angles we cattack from we create naturl intersections of force…if an arm comes into our line of fire , we dont have to chase it.becasue its trying to stop an attacking action…

the common reaction to a fly coming at your face is to swat it…if another kamikaze fly follows the space you make swatting …your hit…simple idea.

Waiting to do a combo action in a stance then ‘chasing flies’ makes you the target…subtle shift from being the spider or the fly. this spider has a web of straight lines in front of it..it angles away from your strengths..2 wailing arms, with mobility and a ‘sense of position’ rather than a requirement to feel your intentions by arm contact…
We on the other hand allow the straight spider web of striking attacks be the ‘signals’ we require to strike again…but with what ? its instantaneous and unthinking …from the by-product of so many hours striking. angling. moving and vying for positions.

you gain an intuitive feeling not by contact but from positions, distances, from hitting things we judge our ability to make a good forceful strike or move to gain one or shove them to get one , turn them…face them constantly striking as we attack…

no good punch means its all worthless, stances wobble etc…

Bil Gee is looking at the systems weaknesses or how to recover a bad position, use one arm to chase , recover a grabbed wirst stopping the cycling attacking…etc…how to recover arms lifted by bridging action..how to stay attacking even thought they managed to grab your wrists…

techniques guided by concept…

As Philipp Bayer wrote and Got From WSL , from Yip Man,etc…the systems idea is perfect it is the human factor that gets in the way …we make the mistakes, we can only hope to achieve 75% of the perfection available. Perfection is a concept too like time…so we go until we die..seeeking perfection.

8

[QUOTE=Pacman;1000678]good post. WC is concept based, but to say there are no techniques is ludicrous

some people out there are eager to call anything under the sun WC. for example, alan orr’s fighters use 0% WC IMO[/QUOTE]

…

***WHILE I tend to agree that Alan Orr’s guys are using very little wing chun, per se…and especially as it pertains to the subject matter of this thread (wing chun “moves” as defense)…

nonetheless, I see what his guys are trying to do in terms of blasting away while pressuring forward, taking space away, and utilizing (ie.- occupying) the centerline, and in particular, the whole center-of-mass area that the opponent would need in order to launch an effective attack.

So yeah, Alan and his guys are using a version of wing chun that can be classified as such, imo…and it seems to be working for them - until it’s time to clinch, or use collar ties and throw knees, and so on. But hey, I do the same thing in the clinch, regardless of what we choose to call it.

…

As to your other point, pacman…yeah, to say that there are no “techniques” in wing chun is ludicrous.

9

And I like this:

"the concept is attacking as defense…the techniques we use make it possible to deliver unbroken attacking assaults .

If we have an attacking action built into our every action it makes it possible to do the idea…many many schools teach anything but this…sadly…

by definition, ‘sticky hands’ is what you will get…stuck sticking to hands…not developing as a fighter , like a boxer, who uses space and timing, movement, hitting bags so they have intuitive judgement for ‘hitting’ things’ and not being a target themselves…

idea is one hand is always attacking" (kgledhill)
…

***THIS MAKES GOOD SENSE as a basic summary of what wing chun is trying to do…

but I would also add this: at least one hand is always attacking - sometimes both…in the sense that “wu sao”, for example, can also “come out” with your attack with the other hand at times in order to cover all the lines.

Don’t necessarily agree with all that Kevin followed with in the rest of his post, about how each of the hands described should be used, but for the most part he’s on course, so the actual details about how I might use bong differently, for example, are not that important.

What’s important in terms of this thread is the idea that various wing chun moves need to be regarded as actual defense (ie.- blocks, parries, redirects, etc.)…and not just as “concepts”…

Regarded as such - AND USED AS SUCH.

10

WCK is similar to a style of dance.

Say tango.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h6qeQL51ro

Tango has its unique way of focus, move, steps, momentum, beat…etc.

Those who have complete a fundamental Tango training does all the above when they dance.

So, back to WCK. How many have a complete training?

With that complete training one has the WCK.

With a complete training, everything is a defense and offense; it is not about a single component but a system which make it so.

WCK’s theme is flow and not hold and control. Since the art said " comes accept goes return.." and thus, can your WCK flow? if yes, that is the defense and offense. If not then probably you dont do WCK.

11

Good point Hendrik.

Two of my favorite kung fu instructors always encouraged us to learn to dance.

Dancing requires you to learn to move in time with your partner. To have a certain harmony. Harmony is the last thing that comes to mind in most when it comes to fighting.

12

I don’t see WCK as having a defensive use, at least not alone.. Any defensive move is part of conversion to offense, which to me is offense.. So, IOW even if you are on the defensive, the move is offensive, because it is designed to convert to offense and then becomes an attack..

Also, most all moves in WCK are not optimally used as a single action, so as you do move A, you are also doing move B and even move C… Not always, but often and especially when trying to either convert to offense or maintain the attack and not get behind the timing.

ChiSao done correctly does not teach folks to chase hands and “wrist”. Good ChiSao is intended, among other things, to teach us how to make use of the line, take the line and strike/attack using the line when conditions permit.. We learn how to create those conditions which give us the line in order to attack, eg, strike, over and over..

13

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1000774]
nonetheless, I see what his guys are trying to do in terms of blasting away while pressuring forward, taking space away, and utilizing (ie.- occupying) the centerline, and in particular, the whole center-of-mass area that the opponent would need in order to launch an effective attack.
[/QUOTE]

A very generous assessment and interpretation of the use of the tools and tactics of WCK.:p:o

14

I must be getting mellow in my old age…LOL :smiley:

15

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1000725]bong … used to recover the attacking line so our rear attack hand ‘wu’ can make an attack…bong energy moves sharply left or right like a pak energy…to attack from wu

or it can be, as i am taught, very similar to 2.34? here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhCEIPaI5KY&feature=PlayList&p=498D43E460EE2620&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=15

Or something i have been trying to play with recently, facing with a fist on the end

16

link is hung gar killing hands ?

17

I have a question for you all.

Say you were hug on the waist level from front. what do you do with your WCK to dissolve the situation?

18

to many variables to hypothesize …what was I doing just before the hug ? :smiley: is it a bad hug or a good hug and from who ? what time of day ? am I in a good mood a bad mood ?..have i got a knife /gun in my holster ? tazer…cs gas…glass/ glass of beer in hand , bottle of becks …up against a wall, staircase…get my drift ? witnesses , alone with would be ‘hugger’ ?

A lot of ‘reality’ is opportunistic in how you resolve things, whats around you, where you are…etc…

silly question Hendrik ask another :wink:

19

I’m not doing anything with my wing chun to get out of a front bear hug…it’s too late for wing chun, per se. But there are other moves I might use at that moment that come from elsewhere.

Interesting question, though…because in William Cheung’s TWC there is a pretty good defense against a rear bear hug that comes right out of the advanced SLT form.

20

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1000893]I’m not doing anything with my wing chun to get out of a front bear hug…it’s too late for wing chun, per se. But there are other moves I might use at that moment that come from elsewhere.

Interesting question, though…because in William Cheung’s TWC there is a pretty good defense against a rear bear hug that comes right out of the advanced SLT form.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing your view.

For me, this is a question related to WCK’s deliver inch force strike at the hug.. because every part of WCner suppose to be able to deliver strike…etc and body is as good as any other part of the body to deliver.

The bottom line of WCK’s defense, strike with any part of the body at any time.

Just some thoughts.