Can anyone tell me the relationship between snake style(s) and crane style(s) to wing chun. Where these arts among those wing chun derives?
[QUOTE=BruiserBrody;890200]Can anyone tell me the relationship between snake style(s) and crane style(s) to wing chun. Where these arts among those wing chun derives?[/QUOTE]
Snakes strike linear like WC’s straight punch and biu jee. Cranes use their beaks and wings to fight on an angle like gan, bong, double gan, etc.
There are sections in CK, BJ and the dummy that are very snake-influenced. Both in terms of striking and mechanics of movement. Phil covered the crane.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;890405]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig[/QUOTE]
For those that can’t get youtube at work and/or may not know who those gentlemen are, can you bring them up to date?
WCK is based on one animal -
the Ameba!
Now if someone calls you the lowest form of life, thank them!
Forget about Crane and snake…
“It becomes even more of a mystery. Amoebas seem to use different engulfing tactics to suit the various types of prey. They can detect if a prey needs a fast approach (ciliates) or can be feasted on as a slow meal”
If the idea is to move like an amoeba to ‘eat the space of your opponent’ then sure, Wing Chun is very much like the amoeba. If the idea is to adapt and ‘be like water’, then sure Wing Chun is like the amoeba. If the idea is to be like a single-celled organism limited to discussing Wing Chun in a youtube clip by sitting around a table, then sure, Wing Chun may be like an amoeba.
(Sorry Hendrik, just a cheeky poke. To be honest I didn’t watch your clip in its entirety and I am sure there are things I would agree with. Its just that I like to watch Wing Chun in action is all).
In terms of Snake and Crane in Wing Chun. For me, their relevance is limited to the origin myth of Wing Chun. Far better to be concerned about making Wing Chun work than seeing which animal each move looks like.
Suki
[QUOTE=chusauli;890407]WCK is based on one animal -
the Ameba!
Now if someone calls you the lowest form of life, thank them!
Forget about Crane and snake… :)[/QUOTE]
Robert,
Very True
[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;890477]In terms of Snake and Crane in Wing Chun. For me, their relevance is limited to the origin myth of Wing Chun. Far better to be concerned about making Wing Chun work than seeing which animal each move looks like.[/QUOTE]
As far as I’m concerned, what a Wing Chun student ‘looks like’ can depict what type of strength he is using, or ‘jing’ as Hendrik puts it. This isn’t just muscle manipulation, it’s oldskool heigung (chigung/qigong)
How and when the snake & crane combination came about is anyones guess, although I have heard various ‘stories and folklores’. One of the first dual animal styles to come out of Shaolin was the Tiger & Crane (if not THE first) of Hung family origin.
The snake was more linked with older Taoist principles, especially with regards to breathing and tendon strengthening exercises. These ideas wer also closely linked to the females of the time, many claiming to know the ‘secrets’ of the Tao. I believe the legends surrounding our style only help us to understand the development of Chinese Martial Arts as a natural process (and one in which HAS to involve women)
Therefore snake = yin/soft/female and the crane = yang/hard/male
If you do not train in this way and are ‘unbalanced’, you may never even feel what Wing Chun is in it’s simplest form. Indeed, SLT has both yin/yang snake/crane but how you decipher and find the knowledge is not commonly known imo.
Stanzas and Kuen Kuit are a ‘finger pointing to the moon’. They help and assist, but are in no way an ultimate truth. Most I’ve read are just ‘individual hints & tips’ to be honest.
[QUOTE=Chusauli;890477]Now if someone calls you the lowest form of life, thank them![/QUOTE]
I forgot to thank you the first time Robert Sifu, so thank you.
FWIW I like your analogy.
very very funny
Forget snake and crane, think ameoba!
Snake and crane = limbs, although they have body motion, too. If you want to think snake and crane, think the body not the limbs. Snake is entering “s” like, slithering, movement left and right and darting; Crane is like a dog shaking off water, but also floating, sinking, swallowing and spitting…combining is the 6 powers…
Ameoba = body entering at all weak points against weak bridge unsupported by a structure. That means posing type gung fu - all show, no use.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;890517]As far as I’m concerned, what a Wing Chun student ‘looks like’ can depict what type of strength he is using, or ‘jing’ as Hendrik puts it. This isn’t just muscle manipulation, it’s oldskool heigung (chigung/qigong)…[/QUOTE]
Since decade ago, the discussion of snake and crane and SLT have seldom passed the physical or biomechanical domain thus it looks like the Jing and flow of energy part of WCK is fading away with time.
We old guys are obsoleting…
Somedays all of these will become a legend or legends…
[QUOTE=chusauli;890669]Forget snake and crane, think ameoba!
Snake and crane = limbs, although they have body motion, too. If you want to think snake and crane, think the body not the limbs. Snake is entering “s” like, slithering, movement left and right and darting; Crane is like a dog shaking off water, but also floating, sinking, swallowing and spitting…combining is the 6 powers…
Ameoba = body entering at all weak points against weak bridge unsupported by a structure. That means posing type gung fu - all show, no use.[/QUOTE]
Hi Robert wanted to ask you since you talk a lot about structure. Do you feel structure (as great as it is) is also limited.Just as muscle strength is limited so is structure.If two people possess great structure then who has the advantage? Both are on the same playing field. At that point, I think the next step would be to let go of the structure but still have it at the same time. To be in the Void…
Black and white will make gray. Good and bad will make mediocre. You can not mix anything with WC without degrading it’s foundations. Snake, tiger, crane, and especially mantis, will literally destroy your structure and the very foundations of your WC.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;890702]Black and white will make gray. Good and bad will make mediocre. You can not mix anything with WC without degrading it’s foundations. Snake, tiger, crane, and especially mantis, will literally destroy your structure and the very foundations of your WC.[/QUOTE]
Don’t take the snake and crane principles so literally. It’s just a way of explaining linear and angular attacks and defenses.
Don’t take the snake and crane principles so literally. It’s just a way of explaining linear and angular attacks and defenses.
OHHH. ok
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;890694]If two people possess great structure then who has the advantage? Both are on the same playing field. At that point, I think the next step would be to let go of the structure but still have it at the same time. To be in the Void…[/QUOTE]
hypothetically two fighters with equal structure = it then becomes about timing IMHO…
I would argue will is the decider also over to physically equal fighters.
I give my opinion cause im big on VT structure also.
P.S i like alot of what the Chi Sau li guys advocate
DREW
“As far as I’m concerned, what a Wing Chun student ‘looks like’ can depict what type of strength he is using, or ‘jing’ as Hendrik puts it. This isn’t just muscle manipulation, it’s oldskool heigung (chigung/qigong)”
I have no issue with you examining students in terms of which animals they look like. However, I am not sure how this would provide any insight as to “what strength he is using”. Wing Chun men should be pragmatists. The type of indicators they should use for assessing a movement, is its effectiveness. You would be hard pressed to find an effective fighter who mimics animal movements whilst fighting (outside of Kung Fu flicks). However, if you want to name good fighters based on whether they are effective you need look no further than the top rated guys in MMA.
I like Wing Chun, lots in fact. But I see no reason why an effective Wing Chun man needs to get caught up in esoterica like 'jing, hei-gung, nei-gung, chi, ether, telekinesis, remote viewing… etc. While it may be fun to try to think in pseudo-supernatural energetic terms, I don’t think it is progressive. If anything, it is unhelpful as it can become a preoccupation used as an excuse to avoid training with intensity and purpose.
FWIW, I think Phil is on the right line with “Don’t take the snake and crane principles so literally. It’s just a way of explaining linear and angular attacks and defenses”.
Lastly, I am not sure whether Robert’s post mentioning “spitting and swallowing” is appropriate for a family oriented forum like this ; )
Suki
[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;890714]"
I like Wing Chun, lots in fact. But I see no reason why an effective Wing Chun man needs to get caught up in esoterica like 'jing, hei-gung, nei-gung, chi, …[/QUOTE]
Until we know what is Jing, Chi and how to evoke them and direct them, we dont know what is it means.
What is Jing? what is Chi? for some Jing is as real as gold.
Crane and snake have thier significant in training the Shen, Qi, and Jing. Until those are experience as the ancient, we dont know. Dont we want to find out what happen?
[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;890714]
I like Wing Chun, lots in fact. But I see no reason why an effective Wing Chun man needs to get caught up in esoterica like 'jing, hei-gung, nei-gung, chi, ether, telekinesis, remote viewing… etc. While it may be fun to try to think in pseudo-supernatural energetic terms, I don’t think it is progressive. If anything, it is unhelpful as it can become a preoccupation used as an excuse to avoid training with intensity and purpose.
Suki[/QUOTE]
Quote for importance.