Snake and Crane in Wing Chun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

“Until we know what is Jing, Chi and how to evoke them and direct them, we dont know what is it means. What is Jing? what is Chi? for some Jing is as real as gold. Crane and snake have thier significant in training the Shen, Qi, and Jing. Until those are experience as the ancient, we dont know. Dont we want to find out what happen?”

Hi Hendrik,

Do we have any proof that Jing, Chi is not a product of a psychosomatic desire to look beyond the human condition almost akin to a strong desire to believe in God. I respect your search and wish you success and hope that one day we will all be able to share in the spoils of your endeavour once you have uncovered the ‘secret’.

Right now, I don’t know how to evoke Jing anymore that I know how to evoke poltergeist. I am not in search of Jing, Chi, the philosopher’s stone or El Dorado. You suggest that the ancient experienced these things and for some reason they are now lost to us. If they are lost, let them remain lost!

Why not embrace those things that are available. Why not invest that effort into understanding the biomechanics behind force generation? Why not look at technological advances and see how they can be used to facilitate Wing Chun skill? Why not look at increasing tendon and ligament strength, maximizing the incorporation of fast twitch fiber, trying to figure out how to overcome golgi tendon inhibition?

Similarly, why not go so far as looking to see how your perceptive reality is a product of your linguistic frame of reference (Korzybski), how to overcome psychological barriers in performance using reframing, anchoring, swish patterns, understanding the nature of aggression on a hormonal level (adrenaline/cortisol), as well as understanding how violent confrontations happen, and how the street predator is likely a hardened recidivist?

Judge a punch by the impact it makes, not the way in which your body vibrates creating a spiral of chi reverberating through your spine.

In short, time can be spent in one of two ways; searching for meaning through a cloud of smoke or creating meaning by touching, feeling and embracing that which is manifest!

Suki

22

[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;890897]“Until we know what is Jing, Chi and how to evoke them and direct them, we dont know what is it means. What is Jing? what is Chi? for some Jing is as real as gold. Crane and snake have thier significant in training the Shen, Qi, and Jing. Until those are experience as the ancient, we dont know. Dont we want to find out what happen?”

Hi Hendrik,

Do we have any proof that Jing, Chi is not a product of a psychosomatic desire to look beyond the human condition almost akin to a strong desire to believe in God. I respect your search and wish you success and hope that one day we will all be able to share in the spoils of your endeavour once you have uncovered the ‘secret’. …

Judge a punch by the impact it makes, not the way in which your body vibrates creating a spiral of chi reverberating through your spine.

In short, time can be spent in one of two ways; searching for meaning through a cloud of smoke or creating meaning by touching, feeling and embracing that which is manifest!

Suki[/QUOTE]

I cant expect more than your Good honest reply.

however, lets not forget that we all sees the world within our mind set. Some has wider mind set some is narrower and some is limitless.

Different people exist in this world with different purpose and doing different things.

Thus, everything is well and so be it.

23

[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;890694]Hi Robert wanted to ask you since you talk a lot about structure. Do you feel structure (as great as it is) is also limited.Just as muscle strength is limited so is structure.If two people possess great structure then who has the advantage? Both are on the same playing field. At that point, I think the next step would be to let go of the structure but still have it at the same time. To be in the Void…[/QUOTE]

LOL! The problem is 90% of WCK have no idea of true structure, and the other 10% just use the buzzword. :slight_smile:

Assuming the “level” playing field, the one who changes better is better.

Structure is powerful on the negative as well as the positive.

Most know the positive, if they know any at all.

24

LOL! The problem is 90% of WCK have no idea of true structure, and the other 10% just use the buzzword.

Dont kid yourself …that is what you would like to believe !

Structure is powerful on the negative as well as the positive.

An obsession with body structure is only useful if you intend on fighting like a robot…its the actual strike that counts. IMO flow and power is more important. All structures achieve is locking a position momentarily…against a punch rather a waste of energy !

Structures is only really useful when weapons are involved.

25

[QUOTE=chusauli;891118]LOL! The problem is 90 of WCK have no idea of true structure, and the other 10% just use the buzzword. :slight_smile:

Assuming the “level” playing field, the one who changes better is better.

Structure is powerful on the negative as well as the positive.

Most know the positive, if they know any at all.[/QUOTE]

Hi Robert,

Structure is generally known as ground reaction force similar to peng jing’s expanding force in tai chi, which is what I assume you ment by positive structure.

what’s your definition of negative structure? is it the opposite contracting force like lu jing in tai chi?

26

[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;890714]I like Wing Chun, lots in fact. But I see no reason why an effective Wing Chun man needs to get caught up in esoterica like 'jing, hei-gung, nei-gung, chi, ether, telekinesis, remote viewing… etc. While it may be fun to try to think in pseudo-supernatural energetic terms, I don’t think it is progressive. If anything, it is unhelpful as it can become a preoccupation used as an excuse to avoid training with intensity and purpose.

sanjuro_ronin added:
Quote for importance. [/QUOTE]

Yes it is important that these terms do not interfere with your training Suki, but when you use words like ‘intensity’ and ‘purpose’ you are actually linking to the shen, qi and jing concept Hendrik mentions. In fact, I would debate whether either is actually possible without the other.

As far as the ‘characteristics’ of the animals, that is ALL they are. Characteristics.

This can be seen and experienced in numerous ways and isn’t JUST depicted by the movement or breathing imo. There is something to be said for ‘strategy’ don’t you think? The strategy of the snake in comparison to the crane?

27

[QUOTE=Iron-Man;891130]Dont kid yourself …that is what you would like to believe !

An obsession with body structure is only useful if you intend on fighting like a robot…its the actual strike that counts. IMO flow and power is more important. All structures achieve is locking a position momentarily…against a punch rather a waste of energy !

Structures is only really useful when weapons are involved.[/QUOTE]

What are you talking about? Flow and Power IS structure. Structural alignment does not mean stiff and unyielding, locked up like a robot. You can be "soft,"resilient and rooted at the same time. You can be strong and hard in an instant. You can “whip” into a strong alignment, only to completly relax in an instant. Anytime you use your body to jolt someone, you are doing this. If you had no structure, you would collapse at the point of misalignment. Whether it is your stance, your body, or your bridge. These things are Basic Martial Arts 101.

-well, the concepts are.
Achieving the skill is quite another story. :wink:

28

[QUOTE=chusauli;891118]LOL! The problem is 90% of WCK have no idea of true structure, and the other 10% just use the buzzword. :slight_smile:

Assuming the “level” playing field, the one who changes better is better.

Structure is powerful on the negative as well as the positive.

Most know the positive, if they know any at all.[/QUOTE]

Do you mean dumping or letting go of the force? when you talk about a negative structure.

29

Fighting like a robot! LOL! That’s in your mind! :slight_smile: But is okay; if you never saw, you don’t know…

What Ten Tigers is talking about is more like it. You whip your core into your weapon or contact point and immediately uproot your opponent, then you give them a good beating.

But of course, this is unkind talk. We martial artists don’thave to do that.

Mostly WCK people without structure fight like robots! Only moving shoulders and arms, and locked stance with no kua movement. That’s robotic and idiotic! :slight_smile: Or even kicking with a snap of the leg and no stomp or hip movement. You may need to practice your pelvis/kua on your girlfriend or SO more… :slight_smile:

Positive = when you throw force in your strike
Negative = receiving force back into your root and skeletal alignment

As for Jing, Qi, Shen, we beat that topic to death. The Chinese meant it metaphorically for processes they were trying to describe.

Good martial arts => Good health, when mind, body, spirit align

More tea please!

You guys need to become the lowest form of life for your core and kua; but don’t start taking on those personality traits in talk and action… LOL!

All tongue in cheek! Don’t get your undies bunched up!

30

[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;890897]Why not embrace those things that are available. Why not invest that effort into understanding the biomechanics behind force generation? Why not look at technological advances and see how they can be used to facilitate Wing Chun skill? Why not look at increasing tendon and ligament strength, maximizing the incorporation of fast twitch fiber, trying to figure out how to overcome golgi tendon inhibition? [/QUOTE]
I think I’m gonna fall down on top of myself - YES, finally, what I’ve been saying for, like, ever: acknowledge that, as technology has improved, the ability to analyze how the body is constructed and how it functions have moved beyond the METAPHORICAL DESCRIPTORS utilized by TCM and the like; meaning that, there is nothing at all wrong with using those descriptors, because they were based on empirical “research” from which a relatively reliable and valid system was derived; however, we can now more specifically understand how muscles and tendons are built, and know how to optimize their function; and yes, if you look at “classical” exercises, many of them do “get it” and do work these things based on empirical outcome-based “research”, but at the same time are laden with certain misconceptions as well; current understanding about how the neuromuscular system organizes in gravity is very useful in terms of understanding the biomechanics of force generation, vis a vis coordinating neuromuscular function and viscoelastic properties of connective tissue with breath mechanism and ground reaction force (basically explaining why a good push-hands player can “effortlessly” toss you around to a certain extent, especially if you are willing to participate on a non-conscious level);

[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;890897]Similarly, why not go so far as looking to see how your perceptive reality is a product of your linguistic frame of reference (Korzybski), how to overcome psychological barriers in performance using reframing, anchoring, swish patterns, understanding the nature of aggression on a hormonal level (adrenaline/cortisol), as well as understanding how violent confrontations happen, and how the street predator is likely a hardened recidivist?[/QUOTE]
I feel like a kid in a candy shop! cognitive behavioralist technology (NLP) is a very powerful tool and absolutely has ramifications in this regard; managing adrenaline dump / mediating sympathetic response is critical, both for oneself and understanding the notion of habituation vis a vis repeat violent offenders; also, the behavioral piece explains a lot about why certain “masters” are able to toss their students around even when the student believes that they are maximally resisting…

[QUOTE=chusauli;891188]Judge a punch by the impact it makes, not the way in which your body vibrates creating a spiral of chi reverberating through your spine.[/QUOTE]
this metaphor is really about how the tensegrity-based connective tissue system mediates ground reaction force in conjunction with neuromuscular activity…

[QUOTE=chusauli;891188]As for Jing, Qi, Shen, we beat that topic to death. The Chinese meant it metaphorically for processes they were trying to describe. [/QUOTE]
can I have an “AMEN” from the choir, and an “ALLELUIA”!!!

good GOD!! HW8 banned and all of a sudden some sort of innate forum intelligence spontaneously manifests itself!

31

What are you talking about? Flow and Power IS structure.

I assumed Robert was referring to biomechanical structural alignments. Power and flow is a combo of muscular reflexes.

You can be "soft,"resilient and rooted at the same time. You can be strong and hard in an instant. You can “whip” into a strong alignment, only to completly relax in an instant. Anytime you use your body to jolt someone, you are doing this.

True but you can also uproot someone easily without the need for momentary alignment (if you dont know how then maybe i can say 90% who know also have no idea ;))

Having to jolt someone to uproot or to send them back IMO is ‘Old school’ knowledge and pretty common knowledge amonst most Southern CMA.

You just need to know how to press off from your hips and torso but your arms does half the work but they dont have to be structured to take someones balance.

Everytime you have to ‘lock’ or ‘whip’ into alignment you interupt flow and still acting robotic even if it is only for a split second. If one knows how it should be enough just to breath in to uproot, why do it the hard way ?

Wrestlers can do it so why cant WC !

32

you left something out:

[QUOTE=TenTigers;891150] Anytime you use your body to jolt someone, you are doing this. If you had no structure, you would collapse at the point of misalignment. Whether it is your stance, your body, or your bridge. These things are Basic Martial Arts 101. [/QUOTE]

I get what you are saying, and your points are valid,
but I was not simply referring to only uprooting. (I’m not as articulate as I would like)

Notice I said,“Whether it is your stance, your body, or your bridge”
include your strikes, kicks,jerks,etc.
Absorbing energy on your bridge, such as when you strike and you are met with opposition-you can absorb,collapse,eat his power, or change the direction of your energy into it at another angle. Without structural alignment, you will simply collapse under the opponent’s energy.
Alignment is also crucial in striking.
Muscular strength will only get you so far. It will enable you to accelerate the mass, and of course increasing the mass will add to this,
but if there alignment behind this, the strike will indeed hit much harder,
as well as avoid injury.
When you punch, is your elbow behind the fist?
This is alignment, yes?
In Gung-Fu there is the saying,“The whole body is the fist.”
Alignment, body integration, converging energy-it’s all connected.

Get it? “It’s all connected!” HAHAHAHA :slight_smile:

(****, that’s funny.)

33

good GOD!! HW8 banned and all of a sudden some sort of innate forum intelligence spontaneously manifests itself!

Actually i for one thought some of his post were quite intelligent its just that some of what he was saying was over and above a few of the guys who post here ! Its probably a case in a few years time when some of those guys get more exposure to other CMA that they might actually see that some of his points are actually valid though i admit his mannerism is not ‘Chan’ enough. But then Robert insulted pretty much all of us here and didn’t see anyone complain? So i shall assume i am part of the 10% using this great Buzzword but not quite really understanding it !

Better get ready for the mad influx of $$$students to your door as now we all finally realise we all had it wrong…:rolleyes:

The fact is there is a lot of Kung Fu Perse coming into WC and just on this thread alone gives a good example. WC is no different to MMA in that it is evolving and as such is sourcing and integrating more knowledge from other CMA that fits its framework.

It wasn’t that long ago when blinkered WC’nrs were making claims that they were the invincible/superior MA’rts and that it must be learnt from Grandmaster HK Phooey to be effective (or you may even seriously hurt yourself !)and i guess a few of them are still preaching.

34

i stopped reading this…

but i thought the snake was direct and the crane was redirecting and simultaneous attack and defence… hence when the snake attacked the crane it used it’s wing to redirect the attack and at the same time pecked the snake

35

[QUOTE=Iron-Man;891344]Actually i for one thought some of his post were quite intelligent its just that some of what he was saying was over and above a few of the guys who post here ! Its probably a case in a few years time when some of those guys get more exposure to other CMA that they might actually see that some of his points are actually valid though i admit his mannerism is not ‘Chan’ enough. But then Robert insulted pretty much all of us here and didn’t see anyone complain? So i shall assume i am part of the 10% using this great Buzzword but not quite really understanding it !

[/QUOTE]

If you don’t or can’t see the difference between Robert and HW8, I feel for you, I truly do.

36

One of the best examples of “structures” one can see in every day sport performance are the elite level fighters or athletes that seem to perform with never effortless power and grace.
They do this because they have found the best way to get “maximum gains through minimum effort”, in other words, structure.

37

[QUOTE=Iron-Man;891344]Actually i for one thought some of his post were quite intelligent its just that some of what he was saying was over and above a few of the guys who post here ! Its probably a case in a few years time when some of those guys get more exposure to other CMA that they might actually see that some of his points are actually valid though i admit his mannerism is not ‘Chan’ enough. But then Robert insulted pretty much all of us here and didn’t see anyone complain? So i shall assume i am part of the 10 using this great Buzzword but not quite really understanding it ![/QUOTE]Newbie Iron-Man wades in and defends HW8. Anyone smell a rat?

A high percentage of HW8 were condescending and boiled down to “sifu sez”. As to the content being over people’s heads … when some experienced people like cjurakPT (RIP, long live “t g y” ;)) take him up on the details he complains that it is too difficult for everyone else to understand :rolleyes:. Of course he presumes this because he considers every other forum member a “kickboxing knucklehead” because they train more than one martial art or compete. Such an “intelligent” assessment.

38

sanjuro ronin says

One of the best examples of “structures” one can see in every day sport performance are the elite level fighters or athletes that seem to perform with never effortless power and grace.
They do this because they have found the best way to get “maximum gains through minimum effort”, in other words, structure.[/QUOTE]

True that. BUT: For top performance, top performers go to top coaches and trainers who know what they are doing.
Details of structure will vary with the nature of the activity involved. Good wing chun structure will be different from that of other “performers”. Best to get a wing chun teacher, sifu or coach who knows what they are doing- rather than “debating” on net forums. To say that much of thread discussions is true debating would be inaccurate anyway, IMO

joy chaudhuri

39

Newbie Iron-Man wades in and defends HW8. Anyone smell a rat?

Oh so now one is not allowed freedom to express an opinion on this forum :confused: Do i have to follow the sheeps…? I happen to feel he has livened up the threads he has joined based on the number of hits they got :smiley:

Robert obviously thinks posters of the like of you are …are hmm …how can i say ?

The problem is 90% of WCK have no idea of true structure
I’m actually defending you doh !

For the record i did say ‘SOME’ of HW8 post… and for that matter i also think ‘some’ of Roberts posts are intelligent and also above a ‘few’ of your heads because he too i’m sure has taken the time & effort to look outside of his front door to enable him to speak with authority. But that does not allow him the luxury of denigrating other forum members.

Personally i thinks he’s not too far of the mark but etiquette like that would certainly not be welcomed in my house.

If you don’t or can’t see the difference between Robert and HW8, I feel for you, I truly do.

An insult is an insult even if Downey Jr had said it ! though i would still want his autograph afterwards :smiley:

This is my final post on this thread and i’ll leave you all to work out what ‘TRUE STRUCTURE’ is ??? (psst. if you cant work it out ? there is a good vid from one of his students you can buy which shows you… shhhhhhhh dont tell everyone ;))

Sorry Bruiserbody for the sidetracking your thread.

40

[QUOTE=Iron-Man;891527]I’m actually defending you doh ![/QUOTE]You praise me with faint d@mns. Thanks but no thanks.

Maybe Robert Chu and HW8 are saying the same thing in different words, but RC is addressing the missing skills not outrightly calling everyone a knucklehead. Sifu Chu speaks from a position of experience whereas HW8 from personal bias.

This is my final post on this thread and i’ll leave you all to work out what ‘TRUE STRUCTURE’ is ??? (psst. if you cant work it out ? there is a good vid from one of his students you can buy which shows you… shhhhhhhh dont tell everyone ;))
Old hat. Alan Orr’s video/DVD series is public knowledge on this forum. I have had the pleasure of attending one of his seminars and it was a wake up call. If the seminar attendees are representative of the general WCK practicing populace then Robert Chu’s 90 figure is not far wrong, and I count myself in that 90% so I don’t need defending. Guilty as charged.

I’m not in a position to train to be in the other 10% but I know it is out there and when my personal circumstances change I will want to train in those methods.

FWIW I give you the benefit of the doubt. Please share your thoughts on structure with us.