Skill or Conditioning; what's more important in a real fight?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Shinwa, of course you need both, and they certainly shouldn’t be seperate, and I too, have difficulty with “what’s more important.” Neither is more important, but if you had to choose one… if it were either or, what do you consider would be your choice? [/quote]

In that case I’d choose skill. I’d still be able to kick the crap out of people if need be. If I were to choose conditioning alone I wouldn’t be a fighter, I’d be an athlete running circles around some strecth of dirt :stuck_out_tongue:

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WWong Sifu that’ an excellent point about modern wushu. I’ve always viewed it as an incredible way for training attributes like speed, stamina, control, etc etc etc. Much more fun and applicable then running laps at that.

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shinwa,

Running laps is the WORST kind of conditioning to do for fighting… LSD-- long slow distance, is the bane of fighters. You have to do explosive, interval type stuff… 3 minutes on, one minute off… 30 sec all out, 30 sec off. That kind of thing. The days of miles and miles of roadwork is pretty much over.

That said, I think I finally figured out what I’m thinking of.

What seperates athletes from others is not just heart, or work ethic, but kinesthetic awareness. Kinesthetic awareness is that blend of power, timing, flow, coordination, etc. that all of us train for. Kinesthetic awareness is what allows the boxer to hit his target, the gymnast to execute flips, the dancer to move with grace and power.

Kinesthetic awareness is innate, but I’ll theorize this: it can be trained to a higher level through something I’ll kinesthetic conditioning.

Kinesthetic conditioning, to be optimal, must be functional:

It must involve multiple muscle groups.
It must involve timing.
It must involve coordination.
It must challenge the aerobic system.
It must challenge the anaerobic system.
It must challenge the neuromuscular system.

Different activities obviously have different effects… Long, slow distance running certainly improves your aerobic system for long slow distance, but does little to challenge your timing, coordination, or anaerobic system. Olympic weightlifting obviously challenges everything but your aerobic system. Golf makes you into a fat *****. :stuck_out_tongue:

People with a high level of Kinesthetic awareness, whether brought about by genetics or training, are potentially dangerous opponents, regardless of “fighting skill level,” because they are so aware of how their body is moving or not moving in relation to their opponent. IE, a kinesthetically aware person, may not know how to throw a great punch or to block properly, but they will probably be in tune enough with the situation to have the right timing to make things difficult, perhaps dangerous. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if you step in while somebody tries to kick you, you can take the power out of the kick and grab the leg.

They won’t think of it in those terms, because they aren’t fighters or MA types, but they’ll be doing it anyway, by intuition. They won’t be NEARLY as good as somebody who trains for self-defense, but they will be more dangerous than most, never-the-less.

A college linebacker, Juoko Ahola, an Olympic Weightlifter… all are dangerous opponents because of their kinesthetic awareness.

Skill without kinesthetic awareness is quite possible. How many of you have ever met that dedicated guy who can do ALL the moves in the air, can explain every little detail, can hit the pads with alarming force, knows exactly what to do and why… and has trouble executing on a resisting opponent? They have rotten kinesthetic awareness, for whatever reason. This person, despite their skill level is NOT nearly so dangerous an opponent as somebody who is very kinesthetically aware.

This is what I meant by conditioning: Kinesthetic Awareness. And I will take Kinesthetic Awareness over skill any day of the week.

Of course, by training MA’s you train both fighting skills and your kinesthetic awareness, putting you one up on the rigorous athlete :slight_smile:

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That’s where the problem comes for me, all of what you just described is what I classify as skill. Being aware of your body movement and your opponents body movement is skill in my eyes. Martial arts without those abilities is simply technique. Not skill at all. Skill and conditioning are pretty much inseperable in my eyes. A skill in something like holding a horse stance for 45 minutes takes incredible leg strength, practing the movements and techniques over and over to develop skill builds endurance strength, and speed. Etcetera etcetra. I just have a REALLY hard time seperating the two.

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In my opinion, skill and conditioning do go hand in hand, but there are different stages in a fight where one is more of a deciding factor than the other.
i.e. If the fight stays up in the kicking, boxing, or trapping range, then skill definately has the upper hand and will most often decide who walks away and calls the ambulance for the other guy. However, if the fight goes to the ground, and I realize how important skill and technique are there, but fighting on the ground requires so much energy, and it takes so much out of a fighter so fast, that I think conditioning is more important there. No matter how much skill you have on the gound…or standing, once you are exhausted, you skill and technique go in the pooper. (that is also where heart comes into play)

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Shinwa, I appreciate what you are saying; I guess I look at somebody like a linebacker, and they are skilled in football, but not in fighting, at least, not as skilled as somebody who studies it; but their kinesthetic awareness makes them dangerous, nonetheless. I think that is where I am drawing the distinction; that regardless of where it comes from–football, shot-put, gymnastics–awareness is the more important of the two concepts. I certainly understand how you view skill as inseperable though: In your eyes, martial skill can’t be gained without the accompanying awareness.

sniper-- in regards to the ground being an energy drain; it doesn’t have to be, I don’t think.

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I could say that some arts need more counditionning than others and some need more precision skills,at various levels depending on the practitioner.
A 60 years old hard style guy would have to fight more to keep a founctionnal conditionning than say a 60 years old aikidoka or wing chunner. A 60 years old sumoka cant be,they dont live long enough!
So, it is relative to say the least. :wink:

Les paroles s’envolent.
Les écrits restent!..

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old jong great post ,

also i would really tend to agree here with merry prankster one thing i hate about my sifus methods is the jogging he thinks its soo important , he doesnt understand that its more important to improve on muscle twitch rather than slow the whole body down and move slowly for 20 ,minutes!!!

Im ofrever trying to explain that better to sprint 1 km 100 metres at a time rather than jog 10 km slowly at once.

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

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What is yin without yang? I would have to say 50-50. But for the purposes of this question I’d have to go for skill. Why? Let me expand on the topic.
When I was sparring Muay Thai my conditoning was pretty good. I could take hits, leg kicks, knees, the lot. Assuming that I didn’t take a KO power one of course. But there was this one dude… He was real fast. And his skill was much better than mine. I simply couldn’t hit him enough to beat him. He’d just smack me around until I was beaten. If I had had the skill I’d have gotten him. Which I did after a year or so. Plus the big instructor. If I’d had the skill to get into his weaker zone (infighting-he’s a tall guy with long arms) I would have done much better.
But my overall opinion is that they should balance each other out. Yin & Yang. :wink:

“Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can’t run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won’t last!”

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my kungfu skills condition my body.

“satisfaction loses,and humility gains”

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That’s not helpful stubbs. Explain how.

I’m not saying they don’t, it’s just that it doesn’t make sense to me. are you saying that the skills themselves condition your body or that training your skills to improve them conditions your body?

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Yah I believe and was taught that the skills themselves(properly trained) do condition the body. You have to remember, according to popular belief Kung Fu was founded to strengthen the bodies of monks so they could stay awake during meditation and work and what have you. To build endurance and discipline all of these stances and poistures ere developed (as well as fighting motions). And during the old days you wouldn’t even learn fighting techniques until you’ve spent AGES conditioning your body through the various stances and what have you. I hear some schools had students spend a year doing nothing but various stances.

It’s like the best way to build endurance for kicking, is kicking itself. You can’t get anymore of a “sport specific” excercise than that. Best way to condition for grappling, is tons of grappling against a live partner. Cross training is good but no method of cross training will use all of the muscles you use during your art other than the art will itself. As far as I know anyway.

Great topic.

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Well, it’s really hard to play under the parameters you set down because neither skill nor conditioning is worth beans without spirit. Period. However, if you must have an answer to an inherently limiting question, then I would have to say that if both are equal then they negate each other. If one is of sufficiently high level in regards to the other (example: skill over conditioning) then it beats the lesser in the hands of any average martial artists.

K. Mark Hoover

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sorry merryprankster, i didn’t have much time.

basicaly what shinwa said. to develope your skills you have to practice your skills and techniques. by praticing your skills you’re developing and conditioning your body, for example when you spar you make contact and that, over time conditions your body.

also, if you look at two different people that have studied a different martial art for many years you can see diffrences in their body. for example, my aikido intructor has wrists like tree trunks because of the amount of locks and holds he’s been perfecting over the years, while my kung fu instructor is alot lighter and agile from his difference in training. in some cases practicing different skills develope your body in ways to suit your style’s techniques.

conditioning your body by using your skills can mutually benefit a training partner aswell. in the style that i train in we do a blocking drill which we sometimes go over. this is basicaly two people blocking each others blocks. and after about 10 minutes or so you’ll find your arms are red from all the clashing of arms. see? that skill exercise also conditions.

hope that clears up my previous post.
stubbs

“satisfaction loses,and humility gains”

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Thanks stubbs it does; I was trying to acertain if it was the skills themselves or the PRACTICE of those skills that provides the conditioning. You’ve answered that it is the practice of those skills. Thanks.

Budokan;

I’ve said repeatedly that proper conditioning takes heart.

That said, if you really think it’s not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog, you’re mistaken.

First, poor condition robs you of spirit. I don’t care how much heart you started with, by the time you’ve been beat down and you’re tired and exhausted, the spirit has ebbed… in some people, more than others, but you are not as willing to go on as you were before. That’s the truth. Your will to fight diminishes. To reiterate, “Fatigue makes cowards of us all.”

Secondly, if I have a highly spirited 100 lb woman and a 250 lb, reasonably spirited, decently in shape, adult male, I’m still betting on the adult male. I don’t care HOW much fight is in the woman, that 150 lb difference is going to make all the difference in the world. Fighting spirit doesn’t count for much if you can’t harm your opponent.

Lastly, the question was designed to be limiting. By asking questions like this, and reducing, or ignoring the other variables (the famous, “all other things being equal”) you create an environment in which discussion about concepts is direct, uncluttered and comparative. Afterwards, the conclusions can be reintegrated. I KNOW skill and conditioning are not the only factors, but I can’t talk about skill, conditioning, time of day, level of anxiety, heart, intelligence, situational awareness, stress, etc all at once.

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great thread! I kind of miss all the MMA vs Kung Fu threads though, now I have to pay attention when I read

“You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting”
Spinning Backfist

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Budokan,

I just read my responding post, and it sounds a little harsh to my ears. No disrespect is intended… I’m just trying to present my thoughts in a logical manner. Thanks for your input!

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YIN OR YANG, WHICH IS BETTER?

SUCCESS AND FAILURE, WHICH IS MORE DAMAGING?

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i’d sit on the fence usually. but i am gonna go for conditioning. why? because skill is obviously important, but think of how in real fights, EVERYTHING goes wrong, and you usually end up using muscle to get out of the situation. banana peels, concealed weapons, gravel on the floor, getting popped on the jaw, you’re whole plan goes out of the window.

however you could argue that dealing with the problems is skill. and that if you hand skill you wouldn’t do anything wrong.

so it’s a bit of a batty question.

=================================
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