SevenStar and I were discussing this on another thread and it makes for an interesting topic. The following elements make or break a fighter/martial artist. In no particular order: style, training methods, individual.
Here are my ranking for these and why:
Individual: The reason I see this as number 1 is because some people have natural athelticism, god given talent, or whatever natural attributes that enable them the ability to train and apply what they learn. The flipside of this is that some do not posess certain attributes and no matter how much they train they will never be proficient.
Training Methods: All in how you apply what you learn. Doing forms or basics in the air will not get it done themselves, sparring, grappling, bag work, conditioning drills are what produces the ability to perform on someone resisting.
Style: I put this as least important because most styles of martial arts have the proper techniques but may not be trained properly, going back to training methods. Stand up styles such as Kung Fu, Boxing, Karate, and Muay Thai should all include similiar strikes that work, but generally boxing and Muay Thai get more credit because of their training methods. Same can be said of BJJ, Judo, and Submission Wrestling in grappling martial arts. I also believe that styles are given too much credit in that Individual A can make something work from a certain style while Individual B may not be able to make that same technique work. Which is more important? Discuss.
1.training methods. I can take an olympic level tkd guy and throw him into mma and he will get killed. Why? he is not training for the venue. He is used to the high kicking which will get him taken down. He will not be much of a puncher. His grappling skill will be zero. He may be the most talented guy around, but because his training methods are wrong. he won’t be as good as his potential would allow.
style. see above. However, I will touch on something that ironeagle76 stated above:
but generally boxing and Muay Thai get more credit because of their training methods.
the thing there is that the training methods are an ingrained part of those styles. the training methods of boxing and muay thai are pretty much universal. you will get similar training and work ethic no matter which gym you train in. with all styles is it not like this. one wc school may have lots of conditioning. the one around the corner may have none, and the one two blocks down may teach grappling - it is not standard.
individual. Yeah, some guys just have natural talent, but those are not the guyus to judge a baseline skill level by. The average joe should be able to be trained to be a proficient competitor, and it is his training methods that get him there. He may have the drive to be a world champ, but if his training sucks, then his day will never come.
If you look at how most Kung Fu is taught, where you get that “Figure it out yourself” attitude, well, that really means make it up yourself and don’t bother me…and make it up yourself means “Invent your own style”.
So, since the style you are not learning is being foregone for the one you are making up yourself, then ultimatly the original style is lost anyway, and all we have are some examples of it’s techniques left over…which means it really all boils down to how well the individual can develop his or her own system.
Now, if you have a proven training system, you really don’t need to reinvent the wheel.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;777670]1.training methods. I can take an olympic level tkd guy and throw him into mma and he will get killed. Why? he is not training for the venue. He is used to the high kicking which will get him taken down. He will not be much of a puncher. His grappling skill will be zero. He may be the most talented guy around, but because his training methods are wrong. he won’t be as good as his potential would allow.
style. see above. However, I will touch on something that ironeagle76 stated above:
the thing there is that the training methods are an ingrained part of those styles. the training methods of boxing and muay thai are pretty much universal. you will get similar training and work ethic no matter which gym you train in. with all styles is it not like this. one wc school may have lots of conditioning. the one around the corner may have none, and the one two blocks down may teach grappling - it is not standard.
individual. Yeah, some guys just have natural talent, but those are not the guyus to judge a baseline skill level by. The average joe should be able to be trained to be a proficient competitor, and it is his training methods that get him there. He may have the drive to be a world champ, but if his training sucks, then his day will never come.[/QUOTE]
I know many guys that train the “right” way and will never be fighters.
Its not in them and never will be.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;777675]I know many guys that train the “right” way and will never be fighters.
Its not in them and never will be.[/QUOTE]
Of course. but like I said, we are not speaking about exceptions. there will be those that will be good no matter what and there are those that will suck no matter what. you can’t draw a baseline on the outliers.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;777670]1.training methods. I can take an olympic level tkd guy and throw him into mma and he will get killed. Why? he is not training for the venue. He is used to the high kicking which will get him taken down. He will not be much of a puncher. His grappling skill will be zero. He may be the most talented guy around, but because his training methods are wrong. he won’t be as good as his potential would allow.[/QUOTE]
Training methods don’t mean squat if you don’t have the nutz to step into a fight.
Remember Season 2 on TUF? That wrestler who dominated every practice but CHOKED in his fight?
He was trained right, but didn’t have the right mindset for the actual fight.
Individual- It is the responsability of the fighter to know what they are capable of and not do something stupid. It is thier responsability to know what tools they might need and to get the help and training to accomplish thier goals. It is the responsability of the fighter to train and condition themselves. It is also the fighter who needs to maintain focus so all the training and conditioning get a chance to work.
Conditioning- All the technique in the world ain’t gonna help you if you can’t take a hit or gas out early. :rolleyes:
Training Methods- A perfect punch/kick/clinch/sprawl is useless if you don’t know how to turn that one move into an efective combo. Lets face it, very rarely are you going to get a one-punch KO; you’re going to need a few good, solid combos to open the door.
Style doesn’t rank at all. It isn’t a style that fails, but the fighter. Saying an Olymic TKD fighter would loose in a grappling match is all well and good. But a stand-up fighter going into a grappling match expecting to win is about like a knife fighter going into a gun fight expecting to win. And thinking you can do it successfully is a failing of the fighter, not the style.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;777676]Of course. but like I said, we are not speaking about exceptions. there will be those that will be good no matter what and there are those that will suck no matter what. you can’t draw a baseline on the outliers.[/QUOTE]
When it comes to being a fighter, the vast majority are NOT.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;777812]that depends on the level of fighter you are looking for. professional level, you are correct. anything under, I would disagree.[/QUOTE]
Most of the gym I have been too, be it MMA or Boxing or MT, the majority don’t really train for competition, in the sense that competition is NOT their main goal.
These would not be called fighters even though they may compete.
[QUOTE=Becca;777688]1. Individual- It is the responsability of the fighter to know what they are capable of and not do something stupid. It is thier responsability to know what tools they might need and to get the help and training to accomplish thier goals. It is the responsability of the fighter to train and condition themselves.[/quote]
this is actually the function of a good coach.
Style doesn’t rank at all. It isn’t a style that fails, but the fighter. Saying an Olymic TKD fighter would loose in a grappling match is all well and good. But a stand-up fighter going into a grappling match expecting to win is about like a knife fighter going into a gun fight expecting to win. And thinking you can do it successfully is a failing of the fighter, not the style.
right, and him knowing that, he changes his style and training methods - he adds grappling. Also, some styles, as I pointed out earlier, have the necessary training methods ingrained in them. That is style specific as well.