Siu Lien Tau --- the Crane Shape snake body

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Rather than insulting Hendrik or the VTM, how about thanking them for all the years of hard work and effort they share, and engaging them in civil, reasonable dialog about any points you’d like more information on, or any points you have an alternate perspective on?

Anonymity is no excuse for poor behavior, and different ideas is no excuse for personal attacks. And lastly, while you may make fun of someone else’s English, perhaps they would find your Cantonese, Mandarin, and Fujianese equally amusing.

Hendrik - I think your points on MA ‘DNA’ are interesting. What is the engine, regardless of what body is placed over the car?

If I understand you right, you propose that WCK used the Emei Shi Er Zhuang engine along with (some?) Fujian White Crane movements?

Do you personally think the Shi Er Zhuang is the engine for all the branches you’ve encountered (Yip Man, Yuen Kay-San, Gulao, etc.) or predominantly the Cho branch? (i.e. what eliminates the possibility that Yik Kam, rather than a previous ancestor, knew the Sup Yee Jong, making it an element in your branch but not others?)

PS - Yim Yee, Miu Shun, Ng Mui, etc., likely being fictitious characters, might be problematic to use in a fact based theory.

RR

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Rene, 1/2 & 1/2 for your coffee?

Qupte:

Rather than insulting Hendrik or the VTM, how about thanking them for all the years of hard work and effort they share, and engaging them in civil, reasonable dialog about any points you’d like more information on, or any points you have an alternate perspective on?–RR

Emotion has taught mankind to reason. Lips has taught mankind to be politic about it. There’s no way to avoid controversy, so you might as well chip in with what you truly feel. >>RH

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Rene,

“If I understand you right, you propose that WCK used the Emei Shi Er Zhuang engine along with (some?) Fujian White Crane movements?”

“Do you personally think the Shi Er Zhuang is the engine for all the branches you’ve encountered (Yip Man, Yuen Kay-San, Gulao, etc.) or predominantly the Cho branch? (i.e. what eliminates the possibility that Yik Kam, rather than a previous ancestor, knew the Sup Yee Jong, making it an element in your branch but not others?)”

Lets do a very brief summary on White Crane and Ermei 12 post.

A, If I remember correctly, oldy of WCK using the term Zee Mo instead of Choong. I have heard that YKS also using Zee Mo instead Choong.

The White Crane of Fujian uses the term Zee Mo line instead of Choong.

It will be great for the reader to check into the "Zee Mo proper " concept of Fujian White Crane and the Sun Hand to see what one find out.
Then, looking back to the WCK and Identify where is those Center Line Theory and Jong Sau.. So called 'Tan ’ Sau come from?
By the way, White Crane of Fujian can traced its official written story to end of 1600.

B, Where the Name “siu” of Siu LIen Tau originate from?
Where the Snap inch Power of the Sun Punch come from?

Check into the Ermei 12 Jong. Within the Ermei 12 Jong,
There you will find a set named as “Siu Zee Jong” Siu as in Siu Lien Tau. It is practicing by standing in an equal Shoulder stance, focus on hand, finger technics, cultivate quick jing and Yee. Sound familiar?

As for the Snap inch jing, Check that out from the 36 Jing method of Ermei 12 jong also. See what you find.

Not to mention, if you check into the
horizontal Hum Gey/Jee Sau of Ermei 12 Jong in relation to modern day Chum Kiu, and the side-way Hum Jee in relation to Bil Jee’s elbow stike.

Too many co incident. LOL

C, As we all in the East knows:

1, Gulao’s 3.5 pole is related to Ermei Mt.'s Piecing Cloud Umblera Technics.
2, Some Yuen Kay-San’s Technics is identical to Eating Crane Style of Fujian.
3, Cheong Bo Praying to the White Crane of Fujian’s ancestor.

The list can go on and on…

See, It doesnt has to emphasis what Yik Kam teaches in Red Junk or YKS’s brother’s Snake SLT. . and kuen kuit… The things above are all self evident speak for themself. No one can do a cover up on these things. They are just all over the place and different martial art family. And By the way, the Yik Kam kuen Kuit was written in Fujian dialect. LOL

“PS - Yim Yee, Miu Shun, Ng Mui, etc., likely being fictitious characters, might be problematic to use in a fact based theory.”

You know this is a tragic of the WCK ancestors. Before 1980’s be it Ip Man or YKS or Cho Sun… all using these name above to in thier history. Because Chinese is a group of people very sensitive and serious about ancestors. Calling others ancestors “fictitious” are a serious insult.

Then, things started to Change and more History were made, now, these ancestors even have to prove that they exist. SAD.

Certainly I can be wrong because I am no god. Howerever my intention is simple. I left my foot step here right or wrong. If I am right then he who in the future has a direction to follow to unlock the SLT, learn the depth of 12zhuang teaching, and cultivate to be a good person to serve the mankind.

If I am wrong let the future historian laught and me. That is fair.

PS. I hope that those who claim otherwise or the oldest of WCK… present some real specific data about where is Shao LIn Eternal Hall, Tan Sau Ng, Yat Chan, ChiSim and where is all the Center line theory, the Sun Punch, and the Tan Sau is from.

As for the Troll people, well as Lao Tze said, if the fool doesn’t laugh at Tao. It is not Tao. And hey, in the world there is Ying Yang. Meaning 50% will like it 50% will against it. That is life.
Zen or Chan people has to learn to be “equal” isn’t it? Instead of claiming other is sick trying to hurt one… That is not Chan.

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Re: Rene, 1/2 & 1/2 for your coffee?

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
[B]Qupte:

Rather than insulting Hendrik or the VTM, how about thanking them for all the years of hard work and effort they share, and engaging them in civil, reasonable dialog about any points you’d like more information on, or any points you have an alternate perspective on?–RR

Emotion has taught mankind to reason. Lips has taught mankind to be politic about it. There’s no way to avoid controversy, so you might as well chip in with what you truly feel. >>RH [/B]

Speak of LIPS.

when are you going to make up your mind about where is Southern Shao Lin?

When Can you answer that? LOL

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chop, chop, chop…

Or may be Hendrik can elaborate on how the snake engine is like in the context of, for example, SNT’s Fatt Sau. Energy flow from body, shoulder, elbow, then fingers. This method is still used in some WC lines, from the outside it looks like a Crane strengthing its wings, internally energy goes from joint to joint. However, like HS said, there are always the other 50% … local muscle chop, chop, chop, LOL!

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RH - Since I’m not a cultist nor a troll, my opinion evolves as I digest new information. Thus, I appreciate the efforts of all those who provide theories, speculative or substantial.

Hendrik -

A) Yuen Kay-San uses Jee Ng (Zi Wu, Meridian) instead of Jong (Zhong, Center), is this what you’re referring to by Zee Mo (is that Fujianese?) By ‘Sun’ are you referring to the Yat Jee (Ri Zi, Vertical Shape) of the fist? Also, with regards to White Crane, its my understanding the art evolved from sets of San Sik (San Shi, Loose Forms) and maybe Saam Jan (San Jin, Three Arrows/Battles) and was not exactly like the more refined/developed branches we see today?

B) Interesting. I’m going to have to pester you to go over the Sup Yee Jong again next time we hook up. I’ve also heard of Siu Lien (Xiao Lian, Little Training) in the context of Hunan (maybe Hakka?) boxing.

C) 1 - Yes, I think this is referenced in Chinese MA books. 2 - Yes, there seems to be White Crane references in YKS, as well as the obvious snake-like methods. 3) Yes, Cheung Bo was said to have a White Crane connection, and I’ve heard stories that Fung Siu-Ching’s system derived from the older, more San Sik-based White Crane practiced on the Red Junks by the renowned likes of Lee Man-Mao (Li Wenmao).

I agree there do seem to be some interesting leads in the direction you’re heading, but as you know I like to be methodical about this kind of stuff and I personally find that with “historical” information such as this, the “evidence” can likely point in many ways.

BTW- How can you tell your Kuen Kuit were written in Fujian? Is it something about the gramatical structure? (they just look Chinese to me, LOL!)

WRT Yim Yee, Ng Mui, etc. I apologize if you feel my comments insulted the ancestors. I wear two hats, one with a fierce love of the oral transmissions passed down from our ancestors, and one that looks at everything as reasonably as possible from a general historical perspective.

> Certainly I can be wrong because I am no god.

In Greek and other mythologies, even the Gods were wrong on occasion.

RR

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Regards only

I dont live in canada , i live in the U.S. That means i can insult someone if i want to. HHHMMM perhaps when you emailed Sifu mengs email’s to all your click last year, that wasnt insulting , was it?
I wasnt insulting his english , i was insulting everything he says sounding like a zen proverb.
And it is your job to police the WCK world isnt it? Your must have been chosen by zeus. Hey you are right, gods can be wrong to.
My point is that if someone really wants to communicate-they will, instead of encoding what they say. That is a game. Im interested in what his family has documented , but im not interestred in decyphering his metaphrical pillaging. You say “thank them for all they share” none of them share anything. The vtm doesnt back up any of there claims. Though they like making statements about how “all WCK that uses the 3 hand forms has come from the hfy family”. Thats cool, just show your proof. Put up or shut up.
And if you are so interested in talking, lets talk about how you you wont acknowledge the truth about your friend Robert Chu’s lineage. Even when Fung family documentation points at the truth. Any one read the new article on Robert Chu. The article was supposd to be combat application,s. All i could pick up from the article was that Robert Chu has learned all the major WCK lineages. That is all the article was about. So why does it say on the cover “combat applications”?

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BG - Freedom of speech is not freedom from responsibility. Besides, I enjoy the freedom to speak (actually write in this case) as well. WRT a clique, I don’t have one, WRT Benny Meng, like any two individuals passionate about the same subject, we agree at times and disagree at times, and though we’ve both struggled with the manner of that disagreement in the past, the last time we chatted, it was quite cordial. WRT policing, as you offered your thoughts on Hendrik and the VTM, I offered mine on Internet trolls. Or do you have special rules?

WRT the valid points buried within your posts, I agree Hendrik can be hard to decypher. I warrant even he knows that. That’s the way he talks in person and on the phone. Far as I can tell its not deliberate, just an expression of where he’s from, amplified by his hyper-active passion for WCK and Chinese history. Calm him down and the conversation, IME, becomes more manageable. I also agree the VTM makes a lot of very bold assertions. Hopefully the basis for these assertions will be provided, or they’ll be withdrawn and further information will lead to different/newer ones.

WRT Robert Chu, I haven’t read his new interview (don’t get the mags here very quickly) but I acknowledge the truth and, being someone whose actually met his Gulao sifu, am one of the few in a position to do so (as opposed to those who prefer to character assassinate through speculation, even to the point of non-sensical quips on Gulao vs. Koo Lo romanization).

(It should also be pointed out that the Fung’s are one branch from one student of Gulao, and it always pays not to shoot off the mouth until wider sampling is possible (learned that from bitter experience myself). )

Now, since you want to talk, how about telling us a little about yourself? What’s your WCK background?

RR

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Unintelligible? Zen proverbs? Fortune cookie? LOL. Maybe you don’t have the necessary background, and too proud to ask?

At least WhippingHand did it with style. :rolleyes:

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RH - When you go back to your father, a scant 7 years from now, you’ll be amazed how much he learned in so short a time…

RR

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Rene,

A) Yuen Kay-San uses Jee Ng (Zi Wu, Meridian) instead of Jong (Zhong, Center), is this what you’re referring to by Zee Mo (is that Fujianese?) By ‘Sun’ are…not exactly like the more refined/developed branches we see today?

The ancient Chinese using Tee and Young (Body and Application) to classify things. Not today’s western “system”… way.

When the Tee and Yoong Fit into a certain Catagory. That is it.

As for the White Crane, it doesn’t matter it is san sau or set…,

when the "Zi Wu Zhong Chen " and the “Sun” type of Fujian white Crane “Tee” combine with the five element hands (Water hand as Tan Sau) … exist as the Center line theory, the positioning, and Tan Sau in WCK. That is White Crane the signature. Case closed.

B) Interesting. I’m going to have to pester you to go over the Sup Yee Jong again next time we hook up. I’ve also heard of Siu Lien (Xiao Lian, Little Training) in the context of Hunan (maybe Hakka?) boxing.

Certainly, Little Training can be in Hunan or Hakka…ect. However, there still no specific being found in this direction. Certainly, one can use the arguement of because there is nothing found in Hunan. Then case cannot be closed.

However, it is similar to phone number, alots of people can share the same last 4 digit. However, when the Location code, Area code, and Country code match up. The “DNA” is completed.

So, similar thing, the Tee and Yoong. when the Tee Yoong converges, the case also closed.

C) 1 - Yes, I think this is referenced in Chinese MA books. 2 - Yes, there seems to be White Crane references in YKS, as well as the obvious snake-like methods. 3) Yes, Cheung Bo was said to have a White Crane connection, and I’ve heard stories that Fung Siu-Ching’s system derived from the older, more San Sik-based White Crane practiced on the Red Junks by the renowned likes of Lee Man-Mao (Li Wenmao).

See, we can dig out alots of these bits and pices.
And certainly, people is free to accept it or not.
As we see in writtern official and local history, Fujian White Crane Weng Chun exist. in Red Boat and Canton.

Now, where is the other Shao Lin Weng Chun exist?

'I agree there do seem to be some interesting leads in the direction you’re heading, but as you know I like to be methodical about this kind of stuff and I personally find that with “historical” information such as this, the “evidence” can likely point in many ways."

As the Chinese historian, Writer, and candidate for 2000’s of Noble price, Lee Ao said, There is alots of case one doesn’t has to keep suspicious. It is obvious.
Again, the Tee Yoong matches. Case closed.

BTW- How can you tell your Kuen Kuit were written in Fujian? Is it something about the gramatical structure? (they just look Chinese to me, LOL!)

Example, Say a term Chi Sin in Cantoness in Madarin means Sticky Thread. The Hongkong rooted Cantonese knows this term means Nuts or crazy. In other place, that term means Sticky Thread. So, if the sentence wrote " this man is a sticky thread" it makes no sense for other Chinese.
And in addition, Like it or not White Crane Kuen Kuit is in Fujian also. LOL.
Not Hunan Or Hubei or BeiJing or Soong San shao lin.

“WRT Yim Yee, Ng Mui, etc. I apologize if you feel my comments insulted the ancestors. I wear two hats, one with a fierce love of the oral transmissions passed down from our ancestors, and one that looks at everything as reasonably as possible from a general historical perspective.”

I am not pointing at you and I do understand your position.

it is just very painfull to see the older past generation such as Ip Man, YKS, Cho Cheun… place respect into Ng Mui…Miu Sun…

But over night, people starts trying to change the WCK’s ancestors to Tan Sau Ng… and all those watery down speculation. With what evidence and what based in specifics?

That is carrying out a culture revolution in WCK same with the Chinese Culture revolution carry out by communist. That is to destroy and wipe out the culture and ancestors. Does it also means that Ip Man, YKS, Cho Cheun ect doesn’t know what they are talking about? That is insulting.

See, IMHO, right or wrong, one doesn’t need to abandon the ancestors. Ng Mui, Yim Yee, Miau Soon ( as in the history of YSK). At least, we now know Miau Soon exist and he left the hint in the Yik Kam’s kuen kuit so that when the condition is correct. We find the ermei 12 zhuang. I don’t know who is Miau Soon but I know with all the evident he existed.

“In Greek and other mythologies, even the Gods were wrong on occasion.”

As what I said, I am discussing and provide the information I can provide. As for if one looks at it as bul**** or take it as jewels that is not my concern. I see my duty as a decendent of WCK is done by telling what I found. The rest is rest on every individual’s own choice. I like to discuss techincal details but I will not spend any energy to personal attack and stupid comment due to lack of back ground.

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Re: chop, chop, chop…

Originally posted by yylee
Or may be Hendrik can elaborate on how the snake engine is like in the context of, for example, SNT’s Fatt Sau. Energy flow from body, shoulder, elbow, then fingers. This method is still used in some WC lines, from the outside it looks like a Crane strengthing its wings, internally energy goes from joint to joint. However, like HS said, there are always the other 50% … local muscle chop, chop, chop, LOL!

As the lyrics in the Crouching Tiger and Hidden drangon said :

If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountains disappeared,
If the seas ran dry ,turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes.
The world I know fades away
But you stay.

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Hendrik,

> The ancient Chinese using Tee and Young (Body and Application) to classify things. Not today’s western “system”… way

Understood, and I think Chinese will culturally understand this and this is why you have greater success explaining your reasoning on the Chinese message boards. Western folks might not have the background, however, and so you’ll have to help them a little more.

> As for the White Crane, it doesn’t matter it is san sau or set…,

Sure it does, since pattern in one might not be comparable to the other. People might think that saying ‘White Crane’, they can go to their local White Crane school and see what the system looked like in the 1850s. Maybe not. Same way some people talk about older branches today, even though the branch split at an earlier date, it still went through its own unique development. Remember, clarity is my motto! LOL!

DNA, again, I agree, a very useful model for discussion. And yes, there do seem to be a lot of ‘coincidences’ or ‘tidbits’ that could be supportive of your theory. Now all we need it that d@mn time-travel video camera!

Your point on Shaolin Weng Chun is valid. We should be able to go to Henan or Fujian and find the system extent in those places, with supporting evidence to show its development in those regions (the way we can with Lohan in Henan and White Crane in Fujian). Since we, thusfar, cannot, IMHO all we can do is talk about how far back and to where we can trace these systems, and it still seems 1850s Red Junk is the soft wall.

Your points about the ancestors are understood and appreciated. Again, I try to balance that with what I can reasonably, rationally make a case for. However, I should point out that (obviously) I’m not just out to ‘prove’ my own lineage legends (Ng Mui, Miu Shun, Yim Yee), but am willing to suspend them and see what the information tells me.

Thanks again for sharing. Still can’t say I’m on the exact same page, but I appreciate very much the time and effort you put in sharing your info, and it has definately given me a lot to consider.

Rgds,

RR

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RR-O.k your opinion is that you dont have a click. My opinion is you have a click. And if you feel that you are responsible simply because you use your name, you are full of it. Please refer to your last long post war with Chango. You remember, its on here, it was started by Firefowl,and you and Chango acted like babies.
Hmmm you may not have sampled more, but my sampling of Koolo is fairly extensive. I learned a watered down version from a student of Henry mui which he taught in the '70’s. I learned 15 points of the system he taught within the last 8 years. I learned a watered down version of Koolo points from Austin goh.The above was just my primer. Several years ago i met a member of the Fung family and was able to make general comparisons between everything ive learned to what he knew. I have also learned from a student of Wong Jing. Whose english was poor and my chez is non existant. So most knowledge was conveyed by touch and with the jong and do. Wong had learned from Leung jan at one point. Though he isnt a pure LJ. I have met Robert chu and seen his 40 point system. It is not Koolo or Gulao or how ever you want to spell it. It is part Koolo part Hawkins. It doesnt meet the requirments of being called Koolo. Fair statement though about The Fung family. They are only One Branch.

Censored–If you think WH had style you are Pinky and not the Brain.

Hendrik- What exactly do you mean by the “Sun”? Do you mean the Sun punch? what do you mean by 6 directions? So the term “sun” is used to describe the Verticle punch used in fukian White Crane?

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BG - If you mean ‘clique’, I don’t have one of those either. I tend to be something of an extreme individualist, which is one of the reasons I don’t belong to any group or association. There are people I get along with better than others, and people I agree with more often then others, and that can’t be helped. So, I guess you’re free to have your opinions too. 8)

And maybe I am full of it (responsibility) but it beats the alternative. Anyone can put on an alias and trash talk. It’s easy. Put on a real name, suddenly people tend to remember the ‘responsibility’ part more.

I don’t recall the thread you mentioned, probably because I don’t consider bickering to be very important. Chango and I bump heads on occasion, I take full responsibility for any poor behavior I might have exhibited, but I also take it as a learning experience and try to do better each time. Above all, I try to be respectful and polite, since I can afford to be.

Wong Jing died a long time ago in China. By the reference, I’m assuming you mean the group in Czech, from Mai Gei-Wong’s son? I’m not sure the number of generations and the extent of other influences allow for much in the way of Leung Jan comparison. Your Gulao (I use that spelling simply because that is how the village name is spelled on most modern maps - in the official Chinese PinYin system) background sounds very interesting and I’d love to hear more about your experiences with the different approaches.

WRT Robert Chu, that’s simply the way he prefers to do and teach WCK. In his mind, its the best model for applying the art, and different branches/sets/patterns aren’t as important to him as what he sees as the fundemental core. The Gulao as he learned it (and as I encoutered from his teacher, Kwan Jong-Yuen) is pretty much the same stuff as other Gulao branches, just organized differently. You can’t always judge what someone learned (and hence their ‘branch’) by what they do some 20 years later.

Hopefully, the other Wong Wah-Sum branches (Koo, etc.) and the branches from Leung Jan’s other Gulao students will one day become accessible and we can get a broader understanding of what he taught there, and how each generation has interpreted it.

RR