Siu Lien Tau –
The essence of Training in Details.
With the architecture of a crane shape and snake body.
You lost me on that one Hendrik.
joy
HUh?
Do mean that crane and snake fists are within siu lum tao? Yes some elements of crane and snake are in the form…
Bao
Hendrik IMO is correct when he points out that in the old days
there were disciplined reasons/principles for naming things
and that those principles are there in wing chun- but he is stating
that quite cryptically.
Incidentally, crossing over from another thread…grafting “western psych” may be ok for some… but it also means that we do the very common thing of wrenching
something from one environment without fully understanding what we are dealing with. The development of the unique art of wing chun did not occur in the hands of western scientists or psychologists.
I think hes just pointing out (for some odd reason, to troll maybe?) that WC - the SLT is distilled (and refined?) shaolin crane/snake/sil lum… maybe?
grafting “western psych” may be ok for some…
And what for the rest? Its not a matter of understanding from a westeren or eastern point of view IMHO. It’s a matter of human understanding. If somthing is true and makes sence then it will make sence (provided your views are open).
The development of the unique art of wing chun did not occur in the hands of western scientists or psychologists.
And what implications do you see arising from this?
actually, western and eastern philosophers have had quite a difficult time discussing the nature of things with each other
the ways of thinking can be rather different. i have a few sources on this that i can try and dig up if you’d like 
S.Teebas asks:
And what implications do you see arising from this?
Partly discussed in another thread. For doing wing chun-getting
good guidance in building the foundations and then doing wing chun is a good way to go. Not getting distracted with too much metaphysics. Wing chun has its own built in learning theory and
development stages— learning how to stand right, turn right, move around right.
Originally posted by Mr. Bao
[B]HUh?
Do mean that crane and snake fists are within siu lum tao? Yes some elements of crane and snake are in the form…
Bao [/B]
Hai Guys,
IMHO,
The siu lien tao is a set
with White Crane Wing Chun “shape” or Yeng (cantonese) Hsing (madarin as Hsing in Hsing Yee) and “Snake body”.
"Snake body "doesn’t mean Snake style or Snake fist.
It means the body and limb moving similar to the snake moving… gradual, smooth, wholesome, soft…
Siu Lien Tau adapt its mother, the White Crane Wing Chun’s (from fujian) , applications and potential (or Sai in cantonese) characteristics
In addition, It has a uniqueness of Rou (generally Rou is translated as soft.
But Rou should me Gradual, wholesome, Sensitive…)
That is where those Sensing, Feeling, Short Jing is from.
And we can track where is this style from.
As it was said,
The charteristics of Crane is no fighting,
Thus it has the virture of the Pheonix.
( this is the essense of using the tranquil will to subdue the action)
The Spritual Drangon only shown it’s head,
Thus it cannot be detected.
(this is the essense of spontaneous transformation, adaptibility, and change.)
Thus, SLT is a set fill with “spiritual of Crane and transfornation of Dragon (snake)” . Those are the characteristics or “vision”.
This is a set fill with Will and body activity down to very details.
Thus one has to go “inner to examine oneself’s will/ body…” then “out to examine the applications”
Thus, it was said to be easly to learn but difficult to master.
No fomular or scientific short cut can bring one there. It is an art or a part of oneself to be master not an operation.
Certainly,
WCK is not White Crane Wing Chun from Fujian because it has the “rou” “snake body”.
In additon, Tan sau’s shape is the Water element hand of White Crane Wing Chun of Fujian. However, due to SLT’s “snake body”
it has different Characteristics compare with White Crane’s Water element hand. Pak Sau’s shape is the Fire element hand of White Crane just to name some.
By the way, the history of White Crane of Fujian can be traced back to mid 1600. with record both from the lineage and Qing Gorvenment to specific detail.
Ie. 1683, Bai Chieh went back to Fujian and taugh inch power…
SLT is not Shao Lin based or DNA because it inherit the White crane’s Center Line principle … hand technics…
this is very very different with those Tai Tzu Based Norhtern Shao Lin with Shao Lin Saying,
or other formulate art which divided into dimetion …
Thus, the SLT also can’t be Hung Gar’s Iron wire fist because SLT has a rou Soft within Kan hard characteristics.
Of corse, I am no God or Buddha who knows it all, however, what we like to do is to discuss about something based on what we can traced in the history and signature of Chinese martial art system.
Not to say who or which is the best. But to examine what might be the face of Madam WingChun — SLT —to benifit everyone in different lineage.
If we know and can pin point the mothers and its DNA. We together from all lineage of WCK can rebuild the face of Madam Wing Chun.
Not getting distracted with too much metaphysics. Wing chum has its own built in learning theory …
As does every learning process; it is important to trust your tutor and not get side tracked in any endeavour.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at, but I think if you’re inferring that a person with an eastern background is going to pick up wing chum faster or better than a westerner…I find this a very condescending statement.
Learning is learning. It’s the attitude that the INDIVIDUAL takes into the class that makes the difference. The kind of thinking that a persons ancestors or peers hold; doesn’t always mean that a particular individual can not take information for what it is and come to his or her own conclusions.
.
Hi Joy,
For me the search of source is an interesting one.
we have to look at the subject from different angle.
Such as:
Cross check with other Martial Art System,
local and gorvenment history,
Culture stucture,
Language used,
Ritual…
Today, what we can say is that we have alots data to pin point alots of things.
As for Western scientists…
I would say I belive all human are equal in potential of learning since I am a buddhist.
However, it is true that the west and the east looked at things in a very different angle. Thus, it has a communication issues.
On the other hand, alots of practiced or cultivation of the east is not Phylosophy. It is a way. That is difficult to communicate.
I have asked someone to tell What, Who, When, Which in other post. It’s main purpose is to verify where the information come from. One cannot imagine how Seatle looks like but has to be there to "know’. otherwise the view one passed is distorted.
When one claims to be from Seatle but has to ask other Seatle residents about seatle. That shows the problem in the view of Seatle.
Adding this problem with that there is communication issues between the East and West.
The distortion in presenting can be deadly misleading.
For me, IMHO, Chan and Dao are just common sense. Both the east and west can grasp them since they are in everyone’s daily life . but again. The communication is difficult.
I speak differents languages but master of none.
for me, to be honest, I wish someday, there is “mind memory transfer” conversation. that save energy and get the communication clear.
east and west communication is a difficult issue.
Hey Hendrik,
Interesting stuff. FWIW, in one set of writings in the Sum Nung family, it states:
Body like the standing crane; arms like the swimming dragon.
Rgds,
RR
STeebas sez:I’m not sure what you’re getting at, but I think if you’re inferring that a person with an eastern background is going to pick up wing chum faster or better than a westerner…I find this a very condescending statement.
((I made no such statement or come close in intention in making such a statement))
Rene sez:Body like the standing crane; arms like the swimming dragon.
((Lots of analogies–illustrating perspectives on aspects of wing chun. I like- Body like mountain- hands like lightning))
Hendrik sez:I would say I belive all human are equal in potential of learning
((Surely- communication is indeed the key east-west, north-south issue. Interspecies too. My dog from Alaska loves tamales- no seals around in 110 plus degree in shade(what shade?) Arizona but when it snows- he is transformed.We talk differently.
I understand the metaphors of crane and snake… however lots of evolution in wing chun and analysis and improvement since then. You cross a river and put the boat away))yuanfen-joy
Rene sez:Body like the standing crane; arms like the swimming dragon.
Rene,
Yup. The common denominator is there disregards of lineage. HS
"I understand the metaphors of crane and snake… however lots of evolution in wing chun and analysis and improvement since then. "
Joy,
Not to judge about good or bad since we need to accept everyone are inperfect. We are just human. No body is perfectly right. and take everyone’s intention is good.
IMHO, The GENERAL technical evolution looks more like these:
1, Crane shape Snake body before and upto early 1900----->
after early 1900. The lost of Kuen Kuit, the war, the culture revolution in China.
2, lost the Snake body and become Crane Shape only —>
3a, Crane Shape importing more and more Hung Gar, CLF, Eagle claw…
3b, Crane Shape importing TaiJi, Yee Chuan, and or Qi Gong because someone feel something is missing since the inch Jing cannot operate naturally and no lead can be traced.
These can be seen from some WCK books which “importing” TaiJi Kuen Kuit.
Or the used of the Term "Yee Niem or Niem Lik or Nail and Hammer analogy for Fa Jing…
3C, Crane shape is fading and lost, importing Northern Shao Lin Tai Zhu based and BahGua… TKD kicks.
THese can be seen as some lineages wants to get back to the original but some how lost its track. Upper inner block become Tan Sau… myth of Shao lin and Hung Mu among with riture are used to fill the gaps.
And the evolution continous, but the basic component are fading.
Due to Hung Gar, CLF, TaiJi, Yee Chuan, Bagua, Northeen Shao Lin’s Tai Zhu fist, TKD add in.
the system seems to keep fading while the older generation sifu continous passing away.
The general Taboo Questions,
alots have in heart but not willing to ask
or have asked but get frustrated
or not willing to show no faith to the system are:
1, What is SLT is about?
2, what or how it really contribute to one’s practiced?
3, what is the result or Kung after practicing it?
4, What to measure and how to measure?
5. Why the rigid YJKYM and the elbow keep into the chest violate the TCM theory for good health?
6…
So, the Question is how can one evol or Revol to better if one has no measurement and don’t know where one starts?
You cross a river and put the boat away"
Certainly it is true statement.
However, While one practiced SLT one still needs vision…
Say TaiJi evol and revol but they always can go back to thier classical writing— the compass, the core idea, the charactericstics.
As for SLT, what is SLT?
Does one get the full benifit by practicing it??
Certainly these all are question not for who has cross a river.
But hopefully those love to cross a river end up in the sea.
Hi Hendrik
I know exactly zilch about what kind of wing chun you do. English is apprently not your mother tongue- neither is it mine- but different linguistic patterns can make conversation difficult- but of course we have to try.
I am not a wing chun history buff… but i have consistenly been of the opinion that before tracing history among many other things one needs to clearly define what one means by the subject.
I dont just like to go by names. I dont think that wing chun developed ex nihilo on the red junks.(We were discussing karl Popper on another thread… if memory serves- he hasa nice phrase on “the poverty of historicism”- in a way the phrase captures my approach to wing chun…
For me anyway the Fong- Ho Kam Ming_ Ip man linked wing chun that I do has an fairly clear and self consistent way of standing, turning, moving and dealing with structure and motion.One can draw implications and test it both in practice and checking with
the premises and the teaching.
((This does NOT mean that others dont- its just presumptupus of me to represent others))
I have been exposed to good taiji— there is no taji in my wing chun nor bagua nor hsingI nor hung gar- as far as any dependency goes-
some of the kuits are rooted in earlier traditions perhaps but they are there because they make across style natural sense and not imitations of other styles. The kuit make sense in the context of direct transmission- because it is a language code nota Time magazine announcement.Short power comes naturally in the system… and the major principles of what I do are in the slt— again its the details. I would be doing wing chun evn it were dropped bya crane over Arizona and there was no association with Shaolin, fujian, white crane or whatever… just as in my english I leave others to debate Beowulf, Chaucer and others.
No pilgrim- a sisyphus perhaps. Not just crossinga river- very much aware of samsara.
One laugh a day, keep your doctor away!
Quote:
SLT is not Shao Lin based or DNA because it inherit the White crane’s Center Line principle … hand technics… from Hendrik
An definite answer was given by some lips. If his words as good as him…not only this turkey can fly like a bird, this turkey can sing like a bird!
humm…
"I would be doing wing chun evn it were dropped bya crane over Arizona and there was no association with Shaolin, fujian, white crane or whatever… just as in my english I leave others to debate "
Hi Joy,
Certainly, style is a personal choice. and well respected wiht whatevern the reason.
As, Newtonian physics is from Newton.
Every university today can clearly and precisely teaching Newtonian physics.
Certainly, there are scholars who can eleborate Newtonian Physics better then others.
Certainly, due to the different focus of the professors some will attack problem and solve them differently. Some might even go one step further to include more special case study where the Newtonian physics doesn’t cover. That is about revolution or evolution…
But, disregard of what, they all are clear about Newtonian principle. All text book has it clear.
Disregard of how perfect or non perfect of Newtonian principle.
They are clear about what is Newtonian physics.
That clarity of what is what, is an important point, in my opinion.
Hendrik-best to ignore personal remarks no matter how outrageous..
Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik-best to ignore personal remarks no matter how outrageous..
Joy,
Thanks.