Do you agree that the “throw” should be “above” all styles, and there is only “hip throw”, and there is no Taiji hip throw, Longfist hip throw, or WC hip throw?
If you train hip throw, should you adapt your style to fit your hip hrow, or should you adapt the hip throw to fit your style?
This may not be an issue for those who believe in “cross training”. For those who believes in “special body mechanics”, “core style”, and “style flavor”, what’s your opinion on this?
yes. throws are part of all styles.
however the entering tactics and strategy may be differed.
no matter how you reach the position and opportunity to do a throw.
a throw is a throw.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1055669]Do you agree that the “throw” should be “above” all styles, and there is only “hip throw”, and there is no Taiji hip throw, Longfist hip throw, or WC hip throw?[/QUOTE]
Perhaps I don’t understand the question. Are you asking, “should throwing arts be considered the ultimate martial art?” Or are you asking, “Do we agree that throwing is a universal principle regardless of one’s style?”
Why would there be “only” hip throws? What about loin throws, foot reaps, shoulder throws and sacrifice throws?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1055669]Do you agree that the “throw” should be “above” all styles, and there is only “hip throw”, and there is no Taiji hip throw, Longfist hip throw, or WC hip throw?
If you train hip throw, should you adapt your style to fit your hip hrow, or should you adapt the hip throw to fit your style?
This may not be an issue for those who believe in “cross training”. For those who believes in “special body mechanics”, “core style”, and “style flavor”, what’s your opinion on this?[/QUOTE]
You should adapt your hip throw to fit yourself.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1055687]Perhaps I don’t understand the question. Are you asking, “should throwing arts be considered the ultimate martial art?” Or are you asking, “Do we agree that throwing is a universal principle regardless of one’s style?”
Why would there be “only” hip throws? What about loin throws, foot reaps, shoulder throws and sacrifice throws?[/QUOTE]
I mean “Do we agree that throwing is a universal principle regardless of one’s style?”
Since hip throw is the mother of all throws (the 1st throw to learn). It will be proper to use it for the general discussion. Should a CLF guy execute his hip throw different from a WC guy or a Mantis guy?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1055689]You should adapt your hip throw to fit yourself.[/QUOTE]
Agree 100% there.
Throwing to me is a lot like Traditional weapons, they are generally universal, but you can carry skills into them that are unique.
The throw may be the same, but how you gain position would be different, and what you do after may be different, from a stylistic point of view, and from a personal, of course.
I think some styles just knock over or drag opponents down, as opposed to using throws, but that might just be familiarity.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;]Do you agree that the “throw” should be “above” all styles, and there is only “hip throw”, and there is no Taiji hip throw, Longfist hip throw, or WC hip throw?
If you train hip throw, should you adapt your style to fit your hip hrow, or should you adapt the hip throw to fit your style?
This may not be an issue for those who believe in “cross training”. For those who believes in “special body mechanics”, “core style”, and “style flavor”, what’s your opinion on this?[/QUOTE]
I thinks throws and captures are some of the most difficult techniques to master.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1055687]Why would there be “only” hip throws? What about loin throws, foot reaps, shoulder throws and sacrifice throws?[/QUOTE]
The reason that I used “hip throw” as the center of this discussion because the “hip throw” is the mother of all throws. If you train hip throw, you can claim that you train the “throwing art”, otherwise you may only train the “take down art”. Many CMA styles all claim that their system contain the “hip throw”. It will be interesting to find out whether this assumption is true or not.
A modified form of O-soto-gari (major outer reaping throw) is found in the forms of Hung Gar, Seven Star Praying Mantis and Wah Lum. I believe this throw is more common in TCMA than the “hip throw”.
Though I do not know of any TCMA that include it in their curriculum, my favorite throw is harai-goshi (sweeping loin throw). I think it is much easier to set up and execute on a resisting opponent than the hip throw (koshi-nage). Tai-otoshi (body drop) is also easier to set up and execute on a resisting opponent, in my opinion.
Good discussion topic YouKnowWho!
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1055712]A modified form of O-soto-gari (major outer reaping throw) is found in the forms of Hung Gar, Seven Star Praying Mantis and Wah Lum. I believe this throw is more common in TCMA than the “hip throw”.
Though I do not know of any TCMA that include it in their curriculum, my favorite throw is harai-goshi (sweeping loin throw). I think it is much easier to set up and execute on a resisting opponent than the hip throw (koshi-nage). Tai-otoshi (body drop) is also easier to set up and execute on a resisting opponent, in my opinion.
Good discussion topic YouKnowWho![/QUOTE]
I agree that fact to face type throw such as front cut (O-soto-gari) is more commonly used in most of the CMA styles.
I also agree that leg block (harai-goshi) is more effective than hip throw (O Goshi) because you won’t give your opponent that much leg freedom. But leg block (harai-goshi) is still considered as more advanced throw than the hip throw (O Goshi) because the “single leg balance” is harder to do than both feet on the ground.
If I’m not mistake on this, Judo guys will train hip throw (O Goshi) before they train leg block (harai-goshi).
Not in Pak Mei that I know.
I’m confused why some of the throws you guys are listing are in Japanese when shuia jiao would be the throws used in CMA.
to answer YKW, I feel that you should adapt the throw to fit your style not the other way around. Its the lead in or set up to execute that will make the difference bewtween flavors of styles.
8 step is fortunate to have 40 of shuai jiao’s throw’s and its applications. BTW the first throw leanred is “Go” its a twiting arm while hooking leg throw… Hip throw as you called it YKW is taught much f a r t h er down the line.
I try to use both SC and Judo terms. Since the animated Judo clips are available. It’s much easier to just show how the hip throw suppose to look like by clip.
If we don’t talk about “set up” and “follow on” and just talk about the throw itself then do you think the style will make any difference?
I will be very interesting to know what kind of modification (by adding style flavor) can make “hip throw” more effective. Taiji guys may believe that there is a such thing as “internal hip throw”. So far I still don’t know how an “internal hip throw” suppose to look like.
Again the reason that I use “hip throw” as the focus of our discusiion is because it’s very difficult to change that throw in order to make it more combat effective no matter how hard that you have tried.
Unless you are training throws against actual resisting opponents, for all intents and purposes, your style doesn’t “have” them.
Judo people will have no idea what you are talking about if you don’t use the Japanese terms, and it’s easier to find the Japanese name for something than the shuai jiao term. Of course, some of us also use English 
Basicly, there are throws/takedowns you do with a jacket and those you do without. A jacket changes the game a lot. There is some cross over, but the gripping effects BOTh offense and defense
I would say there are about 8 or 10 basic techniques, with variations, follow ups, “chains” etc etc
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1055744]Unless you are training throws against actual resisting opponents, for all intents and purposes, your style doesn’t “have” them.[/QUOTE]
well duh 
TCMA has most of the common takdown techniques, it is just they don’t train them
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1055747]well duh
TCMA has most of the common takdown techniques, it is just they don’t train them[/QUOTE]
That’s pretty much the same as saying wrestling has jabs, crosses and uppercuts.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1055750]That’s pretty much the same as saying wrestling has jabs, crosses and uppercuts.[/QUOTE]
oh come on, not exactly…
it’s bad enough they don’t train them, leave it at that
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1055750]That’s pretty much the same as saying wrestling has jabs, crosses and uppercuts.[/QUOTE]
Wrestling does have jabs, crosses and uppercuts. They are “hidden” in the ancient wrestling forms. A wrestling coach will only reveal these ancient “secrets” to his most trusted disciples.